Difference between revisions of "Talk:Heb 4:11-16"

Revision as of 18:54, 28 August 2006

Verse 12

Psuche vs. Pneuma

Anyone here want to take on the distinction between these two in Greek thought? Rob Fergus 22:54, 28 Aug 2006 (UTC)

Verse 16

Boldly vs. openly

The Greek word parrhesia is translated boldly in each New Testament translation I could find. I don't know Greek, but an alternate translation seems more appropriate to me here: "openly, frankly, i.e without concealment". This definition seems to be a more natural continuation with the ideas about God discerning thoughts and intents (v. 12), having "all things . . . naked and opened" unto him (v. 13).

I think this matters because it bears directly on the tension Nathan posted (Heb 5:5) about passivity vs. assertiveness. The assertiveness described here may be more appropriately viewed as opening ourselves to God rather than, say, boldy marching up to the temple. On this view, there is not so much a tension between passivity and assertiveness, rather the passivity in being called of God is one facet of a broader submission to and unity with God that we should strive for by also "hold[ing] fast our profession" of God (v. 14), relating to God's infirmities (v. 15), opening ourselves to God (v. 16), offering prayers to God (Heb 5:7), and learning and suffering like God (Heb 5:8).

What do you think?

--RobertC 04:53, 24 Feb 2006 (UTC)

Robert, I am not so sure. The second definition of parrhesia is "free and fearless confidence, cheerful courage, boldness, assurance." I take it that you want to resist this definition, preferring instead the first. However, I do think that "cheerful courage" captures much of the tone of Hebrews. The author is writing a people who "recall former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured hard struggle and sufferings, sometimes being publicly exposed to abuse and afflication, and sometimes being partners with those so treated." (RSV) See Heb 10:32 et seq. One of my absolute favorite passages of scripture is the contrast between the old and the new law that the author of Hebrews offers by contrasting Mount Siani with Mount Zion. See Heb 12:18 et seq. (Incidentally, this is a passage that the KJV mangles a bit. The RSV -- which I have with me -- does a bit better.) The basic contrast is between the terror of Mt. Siani -- "If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned" (Heb 12:20) -- and Mt. Zion, a place where we are gathered to "the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering" (Heb 12:22, emphasis added). I think that "cheerful courage" is not a bad way of understanding Hebrew's soteriology. Another -- implicit contrast -- is the believer boldly approaching the throne of grace and the awful and blood-soaked journey of the high priest into the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur. In short, I think that the current translation is more consistent with the rest of Hebrews. Besides, I love the tone of "boldly going to the throne of grace" and I would be loath to lose it.

--Nathan Oman 18:30, 24 Feb 2006 (UTC)

Good point about the tie-in with the terror of Mt. Sinai vs. "festal gathering" of Mt. Zion. Since none of the translations I checked at Crosswalk use the openly definition, I'm suspicious of my argument above. I'll work on revising the Heb 5:1-5 commentary page to reflect both views (with an emphasis on your reading) when I get some time (unless you or someone else beats me to it).

I'm less clear on the last point you're making above, about the implicit contrast with the bload-soaked journey of the high priest. Are you suggesting a contrast between the drudgery of a difficult trip and the cheerfulness implied by parrhesia, or the courage implied by parrhesia, or something else entirely?

Also, thanks for recommending the RSV (it's available on-line here at Crosswalk) and for the very interesting posts. (Also, don't miss my other question for you here.)

--RobertC 04:57, 25 Feb 2006 (UTC)

Robert, I try to flesh out what I am talking about with my last point in my exchange atTalk:Heb_5:1-5 with Matthew. Here is the gist of what I am saying:

1. The ancient temple was associated with fear and terror, just as was Mt. Siani in Heb 12:20.

2. The invitation in Heb 4:16 is an invitation for all believers to essentially go through the ritual of the high priest and enter into God's presence.

3. This is a scary thing to do.

4. Ergo, the author encourages them to act boldly and courageously.

--Nathan Oman 17:47, 27 Feb 2006 (UTC)