Talk:3 Ne 11:31-41

Verse 34

What about people who don't believe, but are baptized? Why isn't this category mentioned? --User:Matthewfaulconer 19 Dec 2005

Good question. An ensuing question is why would someone who doesn't believe be baptized? If they hope baptism will help them, or think there's a possibility baptism will help them, then maybe this constitutes a type of belief. If they are being baptized for some ulterior reason, perhaps that reason could be examined and condemned on its own terms but to do so here would complicate the main (simple) point Christ is trying to make. --RobertC 10:35, 19 Dec 2005 (UTC)

Bearing record

There are many different accounts of bearing record in the scriptures. To best describe what I feel it to mean in this passage of scripture I started by defining the terms individually. Merriam-Webster Online defines bear as 1 e: to give as testimony <bear false witness> f: to have as an identification. And defines record as: 1: in the position of having publicly declared oneself, and 2: relating to, or being one that is extraordinary among or surpasses others of its kind.

To bear record according to these definitions could mean: to have as an identification and declaring testimony about that identification. Doctrine and Covenants 58:59 states “And let no man return from this land except he bear record by the way, of that which he knows and most assuredly believes.” This verse to me is saying that to bear record means to declare that which I know and believe. Doctrine and Covenants 62: 5 talks about the Lord’s instruction to elders of the church on their way to the land of Zion. It states, “And then you may return to bear record, yea, even altogether, or two by two, as seemeth you good, it mattereth not unto me; only be faithful, and declare glad tidings unto the inhabitants of the earth, or among the congregations of the wicked.” The significance of this, I believe, can be found in 3 Nephi 11:35-36 which talks about how the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost all bear record of each other and are one, one in purpose and meaning. As we bear record of Christ our thoughts are turned to him, and we unite in purpose with him, as seen in Moroni 7: 48. “Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.” As we become like him and believe in him the Holy Ghost bears record to us about the truth of our belief. So as we bear record we become more like Christ and live lives that can become examples to all those who can see us. This in turn allows others to bear record of Christ through our bearing record of him. Tom3474

Subjective doctrine (v. 31)

I think this is an interesting observation—that Christ's doctrine does not seem to be the kind of theological doctrine that we tend to associate with the word doctrine nowdays—is very interesting b/c of my recent interest in understanding the benefits and dangers of philosophical theology. Not only is the relationship aspect emphasized here, but the covenantal aspect of that relationship (viz. baptism, emphasized here and in 2 Ne 31). I've also had some interesting discussion recently with a friend regarding non-covenantal sexual relationships ending in heartache which has got me thinking more about the purposes of covenants we enter into. I'm anxious to continue studying this. Thanks for the thoughts Joe.... --RobertC 18:41, 2 Sep 2006 (UTC)

I especially like the commentary on v 31 as well. I will be interested in seeing how this all fits together with the "whoso shall declare more or less than this..." part (e.g. v 40). I don't have a good understanding of what that means. --Matthew Faulconer 20:17, 2 Sep 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, guys, for your interest in this working commentary. My internet connections have been down for a couple of days, so I'm going to post in a moment the work of a couple of days. I had not done any further work on the subjective aspect of the doctrine in that work, but I will keep that more presently in mind as I work through the remainder of the passage. I've begun working through some books on the Trinity, since my knowledge of the Christian concept of the Trinity is unfortunately limited. I'm very interested to see how what Jesus here says differs from, say, Augustine's interpretation. --Joe Spencer 14:18, 4 Sep 2006 (UTC)