Difference between revisions of "Talk:Isa 27:6-10"
(finally getting off the Israel-as-scapegoat wagon....) |
Joe Spencer (Talk | contribs) (→Scapegoat (v. 9)?) |
||
| Line 3: | Line 3: | ||
OK, after reading a bit more on the scapegoat, I'm revising my question here. It seems pretty clear that the scapegoat carried away the sins of the people (see [[Lev 16:22]]; sorry for my naive questions/comments on this...). Now I'm just wondering if there is ''any'' connection between "Israel in the wilderness" (or "sheep gone astray") and the scapegoat being driven into the wilderness. In particular, [[Isa 53:6]] seems interesting in this light: "we like sheep gone astray" is used as well as the probable scapegoat allusion "the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." Is the sheep-goat imagery merely coincidental or poetic without any real meaning? A related question is how to understand Christ as both Shepherd and (pascal) Lamb of God. Not that I mind mixing metaphors, but I'd like to look more closely at how these phrases are used—ultimately in order to understand these two passages in Isaiah better. --[[User:RobertC|RobertC]] 01:23, 25 Oct 2006 (UTC) | OK, after reading a bit more on the scapegoat, I'm revising my question here. It seems pretty clear that the scapegoat carried away the sins of the people (see [[Lev 16:22]]; sorry for my naive questions/comments on this...). Now I'm just wondering if there is ''any'' connection between "Israel in the wilderness" (or "sheep gone astray") and the scapegoat being driven into the wilderness. In particular, [[Isa 53:6]] seems interesting in this light: "we like sheep gone astray" is used as well as the probable scapegoat allusion "the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." Is the sheep-goat imagery merely coincidental or poetic without any real meaning? A related question is how to understand Christ as both Shepherd and (pascal) Lamb of God. Not that I mind mixing metaphors, but I'd like to look more closely at how these phrases are used—ultimately in order to understand these two passages in Isaiah better. --[[User:RobertC|RobertC]] 01:23, 25 Oct 2006 (UTC) | ||
| + | |||
| + | :I've been somewhat reluctant to jump into the fray on this one, Robert, because Margaret Barker has so completely opened my conception of the Day of Atonement up, that I'm not sure where to turn with the goats. But let me give at least one interesting reading of the goat business that might help in some way, perhaps. | ||
| + | |||
| + | :In the "Isaiah chapters" of 2 Nephi, Nephi takes up specifically Isaiah 2-14. I've wrestled some with why those chapters, of all chapters, in Isaiah. I think there is something there that takes all of this up into this goat business. Chapters 2-5 provide a judgment on Judah and then a judgment on Israel (Southern and Northern). Then chapter 6 provides a Day of Atonement experience, in which the last two or three verses describe two groups who will get the brunt of the Lord's fury: one to be destroyed, and one to be removed afar off. Then chapters 7-12 describe the fall of Assyria. And then chapters 13-14 describe the fall of Babylon. Assyria, of course, is the conquerer of the Northern Kingdom and Babylon that of the Southern Kingdom. There is a sort of pattern here: | ||
| + | Judah | ||
| + | Israel | ||
| + | Day of Atonement | ||
| + | Assyria | ||
| + | Babylon | ||
| + | :I wonder if there isn't something about the two goats at work here. The two goats parallel the two groups at the close of chapter 6, and might they not be Judah and Israel (the former taken afar off, the latter destroyed), or perhaps simply the two sides of what happens to Israel/Judah (many are destroyed, the rest are carried afar off)? If so, then perhaps Israel/Judah are the two goats. Through the Day of Atonement, the Lord emerges and avenges His people by destroying in turn the enemies of Israel and Judah. The chapters Nephi picks set up this unique story. I don't know how much to read the goats here, but I think it is there enough that I've taught it in Sunday School before. Certainly, there is something interesting there. --[[User:Joe Spencer|Joe Spencer]] 14:09, 26 Oct 2006 (UTC) | ||
Revision as of 10:09, 26 October 2006
Scapegoat (v. 9)?
I haven't really found anything on this scapegoat idea, so maybe I'm way off, but it looks like a pretty clear allusion on my reading. In fact, I suspect there is a play on the remnant idea. Aren't there similarities between the scapegoat and Israel being driven into the wilderness? My sense is that the purpose and meaning of the scapegoat ritual (Lev 16) is a very open question. Perhaps Lev 16 is a better place to take up this question. The relevance here of course is that the smiting and slaying mentioned in verse 7 (I'm not convinced anyone I've read has really gotten the right reading of this) seems significantly related to this expiation in verse 9.... --RobertC 14:55, 21 Oct 2006 (UTC)
OK, after reading a bit more on the scapegoat, I'm revising my question here. It seems pretty clear that the scapegoat carried away the sins of the people (see Lev 16:22; sorry for my naive questions/comments on this...). Now I'm just wondering if there is any connection between "Israel in the wilderness" (or "sheep gone astray") and the scapegoat being driven into the wilderness. In particular, Isa 53:6 seems interesting in this light: "we like sheep gone astray" is used as well as the probable scapegoat allusion "the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." Is the sheep-goat imagery merely coincidental or poetic without any real meaning? A related question is how to understand Christ as both Shepherd and (pascal) Lamb of God. Not that I mind mixing metaphors, but I'd like to look more closely at how these phrases are used—ultimately in order to understand these two passages in Isaiah better. --RobertC 01:23, 25 Oct 2006 (UTC)
- I've been somewhat reluctant to jump into the fray on this one, Robert, because Margaret Barker has so completely opened my conception of the Day of Atonement up, that I'm not sure where to turn with the goats. But let me give at least one interesting reading of the goat business that might help in some way, perhaps.
- In the "Isaiah chapters" of 2 Nephi, Nephi takes up specifically Isaiah 2-14. I've wrestled some with why those chapters, of all chapters, in Isaiah. I think there is something there that takes all of this up into this goat business. Chapters 2-5 provide a judgment on Judah and then a judgment on Israel (Southern and Northern). Then chapter 6 provides a Day of Atonement experience, in which the last two or three verses describe two groups who will get the brunt of the Lord's fury: one to be destroyed, and one to be removed afar off. Then chapters 7-12 describe the fall of Assyria. And then chapters 13-14 describe the fall of Babylon. Assyria, of course, is the conquerer of the Northern Kingdom and Babylon that of the Southern Kingdom. There is a sort of pattern here:
Judah
Israel
Day of Atonement
Assyria
Babylon
- I wonder if there isn't something about the two goats at work here. The two goats parallel the two groups at the close of chapter 6, and might they not be Judah and Israel (the former taken afar off, the latter destroyed), or perhaps simply the two sides of what happens to Israel/Judah (many are destroyed, the rest are carried afar off)? If so, then perhaps Israel/Judah are the two goats. Through the Day of Atonement, the Lord emerges and avenges His people by destroying in turn the enemies of Israel and Judah. The chapters Nephi picks set up this unique story. I don't know how much to read the goats here, but I think it is there enough that I've taught it in Sunday School before. Certainly, there is something interesting there. --Joe Spencer 14:09, 26 Oct 2006 (UTC)
