Difference between revisions of "Talk:Alma 32:26-43"

Revision as of 17:13, 11 January 2007

A Start to Alma 32

Okay, Robert. Let's get things started on Alma 32, after all this anticipatory talk.

First, I know your interest in the chapter is primarily in terms of the methodology/logic of the experimentalism. I'm not sure how I think about that yet, and I have many other thoughts on the chapter, all of which ought to mediate my thoughts on that particular subject, so let me get those out first. I thought I'd hammer out some generalities on this talk page, and then we go about working things into the commentary pages accordingly.

I read the stretch from verse 27 through the end of the chapter as revolving around a sort of double trust (based on a sort of play between "words" and "word"). Verse 27, even before "the word" is compared to "a seed," introduces the term "words," but they are the "words" of Alma specifically: "even until ye can give place for a portion of my words." That the "words" precede the "word" is very interesting to me: Alma petitions their trust in him before they put their trust in the word itself. That is, they are to trust first what they can see, an animate, real person. If they can trust him, even just enough to try the experiment, then they can begin to develop a trust in the word itself, the seed.

With that, Alma has them plant the seed. It grows, etc. Verse 29, it increases their faith: I think this means that it increases their trust in Alma's words, not in the word so much itself. I think this is the point of verse 34: one's faith in the seed, the word, is not increased, but it rather becomes dormant, because one knows (verse 34 does not seem to be any further along in the story temporally than verses 28-29). In other words, the faith that is increased by the seed's beginning to swell and sprout, etc., is one's faith in the words, in the messenger that promoted the word, the seed. One doesn't develop further faith or trust in the seed, because one comes to know that the seed is good, that it will do what it is supposed, as a seed, to do.

It is in light of all of this that in verse 36 Alma says not to lay aside their faith: they still have to trust the words of the true messenger, to follow him (he has more still to tell them). Knowledge, in the end, is not enough: knowing that the tree is good is not enough to reap the reward of the fruit, because one must continue in trusting the messenger who teaches about the seed, the sapling, the plant, the tree, the fruit, etc.

I think the consequence of all of this is that Alma 32 is not about how to replace faith with knowledge, because there are two different "things" with which the Zoramites are to have relation: with Alma as the speaker of words, and with the seed or the word itself (Christ, of course, as Amulek explains in chapter 33). One is to trust the messenger, but it is not long before one knows the goodness or badness of the seed.

So, what of experiments? The experiment tends both to knowledge and to faith: knowledge of the nature of the thing the messenger says (that thing might be Levinas' "Said," and one knows that the Said was said well), and faith in the messenger him/herself (the messenger is, of course, Levinas' "Saying," and one must always continue to trust--to have faith in--a person, because people, as "Sayings," are unpredictable). The experiment results in one's knowledge (whether of goodness or badness) of the particular word on the one hand, and, accordingly, in one's increased or decreased faith in the one speaking so many words on the other. Alma's "words": "Saying." Alma's "word": "Said."

Your reaction? --Joe Spencer 19:18, 11 Jan 2007 (UTC)

Very interesting. I hadn't really paid close attention to the word/words distinction before. I think this double-trust in words and the word parallels in interesting ways Alma's "perfect knowledge" discussion, though I'm not sure I'm ready to swallow your assertion that this is "not about how to replace faith with knowledge." Rather, I see the "perfect knowledge in that thing" in v. 34 as being a microcosmic example of how one can obtain perfect knowledge of God's word, which is symoblized by the fruit of the tree. Largely as an exercise for myself before doing a more careful verse by verse study, let me try to briefly articulate my current understanding of the faith-knowledge relationship described by Alma:

Alma starts off in vv. 16ff discussing how faith is importantly belief before knowledge. Then in v. 26, Alma continues to elaborate on the relationship between faith and knowledge using his own words as a microcosmic example. In order to know the truth of Alma's words, you have to metaphorically plant and nourish the seed. After the seed grows and swells, you will know that this is a good seed. The point is that the planting and nourishing come before knowledge is obtained. But this only describes the process of gaining knowledge regarding the goodness of the seed. In order to obtain the kind of perfect knowledge alluded to in v. 21 (and knowing the word in the sense of v. 16), this process of nourishing the word through faith (cf. "strengthen your faith" in v. 30; "neither must ye lay aside your faith" in v. 36; "nourish the word looking forward with an eye of faith" in v. 40; "nourish the word . . . by your fiath" in v. 41) must continue until the fruit of the tree is obtained (which I take as symoblic of entering God's presence, i.e. "perfect knowledge" of the word; I think this latter discussion in particular must be read in light of Alma 12:9ff; I also wonder if Nephi's midrash on Isaiah's "line upon line" passage should be considered in these growth-themed sermons of Alma's...). --RobertC 21:13, 11 Jan 2007 (UTC)