Difference between revisions of "Talk:D&C 121:34-46"

Revision as of 14:11, 20 February 2006

Thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God

Hi Visorstuff, I enjoyed reading your comments. I thought more about this verse than I had before. As I thought about it the phrase "in the presence of God" seemed particularly significant. It seems to me that it isn't hard to have self-confidence when surrounded by people. I think we see plenty of times when someone isn't acting as they should but they act with a lot of self-confidence. It is hard to judge whether someone else's thoughts aren't being garnished by virtue, but I think it is fair to assume that there are plenty of people whose thoughts aren't garnished with virtue but who have plenty of (misguided) self-confidence. I think the scripture is telling us that only a person who thinks pure thoughts will feel confident when standing in the presence of God.

This scripture give us the "if-then" condition but does not give us here the reversal "only if" condition. In my view the scripture really is talking about both sides--"if and only if." What do you think? Anyway, even if we don't pull it from here, I think we can pull the reversal condition out of other scriptures which is why I went to Alma 12:15.

Other comments--

• I didn't write about this but I think the part "let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men" is equally a condition that the Lord gives in order for our confidence to wax strong in God's presence.
• One final thing, could we interpret this as a promise to be able to stand in the presence of God? I have been thinking about this in terms of what happens when we all have to stand in his presence--the final judgement. But could this be a promise that if we do what we should we can stand in his presence sooner?

--Matthew Faulconer 09:15, 6 Apr 2005 (CEST) PS as always, please re-edit as you like.

I keep mulling over this phrase "thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God" and thinking about what it really means. I had been reading it with an emphasis on "thy" and then interpreting confidence as self-confidence. Is that right? Can anyone help out on the meaning of "confidence" in the scriptures generally or at the time Joseph Smith was writing? It seems like there could be some good material here for a lexical note.

Anyway, if we consider that confidence may not mean self-confidence than we may ask "confidence in what?" So I was thinking there is a phrase in this sentence that starts with in. Maybe it answers the question "in what." In that case this would mean "confidence in the presence of God"? If presence of God means his presence we feel through the Holy Ghost maybe this means that our confidence in the Holy Ghost waxes strong. That totally squares with my own experience that as we have virtuous thoughts and are charitable toward others we can be confident when we feel the Holy Ghost that what we feel is the Holy Ghost. When we aren't as used to feeling the Holy ghost then I have a harder time being confident in it when I do feel it. I was thinking of this because President Samuelson said in his recent address Women in Math, Science and Engineering

The only way I know for sure when the Holy Ghost is speaking to us is to live in such a way that we can regularly gain experience that ratifies for us the inspiration as truly from the Spirit.

So far so good. But then . . . I seached "presence of God" on the the scriptures and the results suggested that presence of God is never used in the scriptures to indicate the Holy Ghost. From what I read it refers to being where God is physically present. And I figure if you are actually standing physically next to God whether or not you have done right you will know that it is god you are standing next to.

So this line of thinking seemed a dead-end. So, I added nothing to the exegesis section. But, I still feel like I was going in a good direction. So maybe someone else can take my wrong-turn and turn it into a nice insight. Any help?

--Matthew Faulconer 22:46, 16 Apr 2005 (CEST)

Matthew,

I like your reflections on confidence. I've checked two dictionaries: The New Dictionary of the English Language by Charles Richardson (1847), and the Oxford English Dictionary (on-line).

The New Dictionary begins from the Latin root confidere, (con--with, fidere--faith or trust). The definition given is "To have or place faith or trust in; to credit or give credit; to trust or believe, to be secure or assured, to rely or depend upon; to be firmly, boldly secure."

The first three entries of the OED:

1. The mental attitude of trusting in or relying on a person or thing; firm trust, reliance, faith. Const. in ( to, on, upon).
2. The feeling sure or certain of a fact or issue; assurance, certitude; assured expectation.
3. Assurance, boldness, fearlessness, arising from reliance (on oneself, on circumstances, on divine support, etc.).

I've thought about it a little since reading your post. I think there may be something to learn from the Brother of Jared in Ether 3, when he is in the presence of the Lord. He sees the finger of the Lord and is struck with fear(vs 6). The Lord says never at anytime has a man come with such exceeding faith (vs 9). I think the confidence that the Brother of Jared shows in asking the Lord to show himself (vs 10) stems from an assurance, arising from his reliance on the Lord, that the he [the Brother of Jared] has lived in a way that pleases the Lord. I think this may be the same confidence that could wax strong in the presence of the Lord if virtue garnishes our thoughts. Maybe there is also a link to Joseph F. Smith dream, when he is a missionary in Hawaii--"I am late, but I am clean." A few thoughts, certainly disjoint, hopefully helpful. If nothing else you've got a few definitions of confidence. MJ 15:43, 22 Apr 2005 (CEST) If this is more disjoint and confusing then helpful please edit or delete.

MJ, Great comments, I think there is some good stuff here for the commentary page. I think I will move some of it there. It will probably take me a few days to get to it. Feel free, of course, to move it there sooner if you get to it first. --Matthew Faulconer 21:16, 23 Apr 2005 (CEST)

MJ, I added a bit but ran out of time. Please feel free to add more/edit. --Matthew Faulconer 16:48, 24 Apr 2005 (CEST)

No power or influence

The question I posted--it is a real question for me. I don't really think I understand verse 41. Part of the answer I am sure has to do with the rest of the verse and the next few verses. I understand that the bishop and others have love, should be kind, etc. My experience is that Bishops are very concerned about the people in the ward, that they do show love and kindness etc. But it sort of seems that part of the influence and power they have in the ward, they have by virtue of their office in the priesthood. --Matthew Faulconer 10:31, 10 Apr 2005 (CEST)

Matthew, I like the exegesis you posted about this phrase. Not sure if this is common amongst other readers or not, but I've always read this the second way, that only = except. This second interpretation seems to negate the problem suggested/implied by your question above about a bishopric's power/influence over ward members. Also, on this reading, I think the list following only is set up in contrast to vv. 36-39 describing unrighteous dominion. Out of context, reading the only in v. 41 as except seems strange (or at least vague), but in light of vv. 36-39 the only carries more significance implying that the following list describes what should be occurring in contrast to what vv. 36-39 describe as should not be occurring.

But thinking about your first interpretation is interesting--maybe there's something inherently diabolical about exerting power and influence over others b/c it goes against the pre-mortal plan of with its emphasis on free will. If "power" were the only word here, I could buy such a reading, but "influence" seems too benign a word to read it this way.

However, in the preceding paragraph, you'll notice I used the word "exert" whereas the text uses the word "maintained". So, reading only in the first way you suggest, what if we change the emphasis to "maintain"--that is, it's OK to exert influence over others, but that influence should not be maintained. Even as a bishop, some influence is OK, but ultimately members should be influenced by God and personal revelation, not continue relying on their bishop (I'm thinking in a "spiritual advice" sense here, but this could apply in a physical/welfare sense too...).

I'm also a little puzzled by the wording "by virtue of the priesthood". Could "by virtue" mean that it's not wrong to maintain power or influence over others, but appealing to a priesthood calling or office for such power/influence is wrong? Perhaps the power and influence we should have over others should be a result of our example as disciples of Christ instead of an appeal to our priesthood authority.

Just brainstorms I'm throwing out here--thanks for the thought-provoking question and commentary.

--RobertC 18:11, 20 Feb 2006 (UTC)