Talk:3 Ne 12:46-48

From Feast upon the Word (http://feastupontheword.org). Copyright, Feast upon the Word.

perfection

I think the exegesis recently posted by Chickenpig is interesting and probably doctrinally sound, though I'm not sure all of what is posted is warranted by the passage. I'd vote to move part of this to a userpage, but I think there's plenty there worth keeping--I don't have time to edit this carefully right now so I'm only doing some minor rewording and such.... --RobertC 14:57, 3 Nov 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to spend some time on this. Here's a first step but it isn't ready to make its way into the commentary yet.

In my view we often today talk about "perfect" as referring to some quality that uniquely applies to Jesus' life. In this way it means something like having never sinned. There may be cases where the scriptures use perfect in this way, but if so, I think that is rare.

The scriptures use the word perfect in different ways. I don't think I have a very good understanding always of what it meant by "perfect" in different places in the scriptures. Still let me cite some examples against the idea that the scriptures consistently use the word the way we do when we mean by it something like "never having sinned."

In Luke 13:32 the word perfect is used to mean some quality that Jesus did not posses before his resurrection. Other scriptures use the word perfect to describe people that were not sinnless. Here's a list of that: Gen 6:9, Lev 22:21, 1 Kgs 11:4, 1 Kgs 15:3, 1 Kgs 15:14, 2 Kgs 20:3, 1 Chr 12:38, 1 Chr 29:9, 2 Chr 15:17, Job 1:1, Job 2:3, Matt 19:21, 1 Cor 2:6, James 3:2, D&C 107:43. Interestingly the Book of Mormon doesn't use the word perfect to describe anyone. It uses the word perfect with some regularity but always in a restricted sense like "perfect knowledge" or "perfect faith."

Hopefully others will have additional comments on this word. My understanding of how this word is used and what it means in the scriptures is very incomplete.

--Matthew Faulconer 06:44, 7 Nov 2005 (UTC)

I disagree with the sentence "Obviously, no one that has lived on this earth besides the Savior has been perfect." I noted the scriptures above that I believe are counter-examples in the scriptures. Since this statement is inconsistent with the way the word perfect is used in the scriptures, and since the statement is pivotal to the whole argument, I believe that the whole of Chickenpig's comment should be moved to this discussion page. Of course, it is entirely possible that the scriptures use the word in different ways and that Chickenpig's intepretation here is correct. But if that is so, that needs to be explained, rather than taken for granted. In sum, I'm moving the comments to here, but have nothing against someone else revising them and moving them back to the commentary page. --Matthew Faulconer 13:44, 11 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Here is Chickenpig's comment that the above comments apply to:

Verse 48 - As mortals living and developing on this earth, how can the Savior expect us to be perfect even as He and his Father in heaven is? Obviously, no one that has lived on this earth besides the Savior has been perfect. We then need to ask ourselves what exactly the Savior means by this statement. What needs to be considered first and foremost is our ability to achieve perfection on this earth. As spirits, we all have great worth unto God, but our differences in our mortal realms on this earth create different levels of ability to achieve perfection. It seems the Savior expects us to achieve perfection according to our sphere of ability. If we are blessed with a great understanding of the gospel and live in a time and place where we can truly develop and grow in the gospel, our sphere of perfection may be bigger than someone who is in darkness and lives in a time and place that is not very condusive to the gospel. We must achieve our own perfection according to our abilities. Someone who is only expected to get to the 25% mark in 'perfection' and achieves this will be brought up by the Savior to the 100% mark in the end. However, someone who is expected to achieve 40% while only attaining 35% did not fulfill their part and the Savior can not perfect them. Through prayer and diligent studying of the scriptures, we can all receive guidance to know what level the Lord expects of us. We must always strive to work to the highest degree possible that the Lord has bestowed upon us.

--

I agree that perfect, as used in the scriptures, does not typically mean "without sin". Links to Hebrew and Greek definitions of words translated as perfect are here and here. I usually think "complete or whole" when I read perfect in the scriptures. Interestingly, LDS scripture help topics suggest perfect may mean without sin, and in this sense only be applicable to use in reference to Christ:

• "Perfect can also mean without sin or evil. Only Christ was totally perfect" (from the entry on perfect in Guide to the Scriptures).

• "Jesus Christ, as the Only Begotten Son of God and the only sinless person to live on this earth, was the only one capable of making an atonement for mankind" (from Bible Dictionary entry on Atonement).

But the scriptures Matthew cites, esp. in reference to Job and Noah seem to counter the notion that being perfect can only mean being without sin like Christ.

--RobertC 14:38, 12 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Nice comments Robert, Thanks. If what was meant by perfect was whole then maybe whole does imply without sin--not without sin like it is impossible that you would ever sin again--but just as not having any sins--like when Alma talks about being spiritually born of God. In my mind someone who is spiritually born of God, who has experienced a might change of heart, who feels to sing the song of redeeming love, is whole. They have been forgiven for their sins or they wouldn't feel that way. Of course, that doesn't mean they will always be whole. See Alma 5:26. But anyway in that sense people can be whole or perfect in this life. I was thinking this after thinking through the reference to Matt 19:21. --Matthew Faulconer 18:51, 12 Nov 2005 (UTC)

I forgot, I used to use the following verse in Sunday school lessons on my mission to address this very point about how at least Paul seemed to understand Christ's command to be perfect:

Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before.... Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded... (Philip 3:13 & 15)

In Russian, the word "apprehended" is "attained" (as in "attained perfection"), which is the same in Greek--I'll add some lexical notes to the Philippians verses....

--RobertC 11:45, 15 Nov 2005 (UTC)

Again, thanks for the posts. I enjoyed the question on Philip 3:13 & 15. Also, I found the lexical notes interesting. Unfortunately, I think I didn't fully understand what picture you get when you put it all together.

Not sure if that is just because I am a bit dense this morning (highly likely) or if that is because even with the lexical notes there is still a gap in how it all fits together. If you have some time and you think you do understand how it fits all together I would love to see the exegesis.

--Matthew Faulconer 15:23, 15 Nov 2005 (UTC)