Difference between revisions of "User talk:Matthewfaulconer/Testimony related to difficult scriptures"

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(another thought, or the same thought better said?)
(A Thought: a second response to Joe)
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::I don't know if that's clear, really.  I hope.  Some thoughts, at least.  I confess I'm not sure where there is at all a "difference of opinion" here.  I didn't recognize one in the first place.  I still don't.  --[[User:Joe Spencer|Joe Spencer]] 15:24, 30 Jun 2006 (UTC)
 
::I don't know if that's clear, really.  I hope.  Some thoughts, at least.  I confess I'm not sure where there is at all a "difference of opinion" here.  I didn't recognize one in the first place.  I still don't.  --[[User:Joe Spencer|Joe Spencer]] 15:24, 30 Jun 2006 (UTC)
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:::Joe, I don't think I understand this line:
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::::we simply are so far removed from the situation--textually if in no other way--to regard it the way you have.
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:::My next question involves this sentence:
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::::I would suggest we take up a scriptural situation like Abraham/Isaac, where the text bears sustained study of this dilemma. 
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:::It seems like one thing we agree is that this text doesn't deal with a dilemma about whether to kill the children. Instead this is about some people who were told to kill everything, didn't obey (they saved the king and some goats) but didn't save the innocent. It is precisely because the text doesn't dwell on this question of whether or not to kill the innocent which suggests that studying the story of Abraham's command to sacrifice Isaac isn't going to somehow rid us of the question which I had--whether God would command Israel to kill all the Amorites even "the infant and suckling."
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:::Finally, I am confused by several statements you make that to me only follow if one believes that I (and presumably all) are commanded to believe that every word in the scriptures is true. Certainly if we are going to invoke the fallibility of scriptures for anything, what nobler reason could we find than this? --[[User:Matthewfaulconer|Matthew Faulconer]] 14:38, 3 Jul 2006 (UTC)

Revision as of 10:38, 3 July 2006

A Thought

Matthew, a thought perhaps of some help. You feel by the Spirit that it would be wicked to kill the child you hold in your arms. Absolutely! But Saul was not commanded to kill your child, nor are you. The question, perhaps, might better be asked thus: what did those soldiers feel in the moment? What does this have to do with Abraham and Isaac? Do we turn to Kierkegaard here? At least this much, though: there is no contradiction in messages from the Spirit to you. You have not been commanded to kill anyone, and you have been commanded to believe these scriptures. In dealing with the question in the OT, it seems rather to be a question of what they must have experienced. If the text does not dwell on this question, then there may not have been a difficulty, and we might want to explore the cultural presuppositions of such a people. Or we might turn to a text that does dwell on a similar question: Abraham and Isaac?

I may be misunderstanding your point. I said in my post that I do not believe God commanded to kill all these children like this. Are you saying you disagree? If so, there are probably some interesting things we could say about this but I don't know that there is much we could say that would really address that disagreement. Just as, if I tell someone I believe the Book or Mormon is true and they say they don't. There are lots of things we could talk about around that topic that might be interesting but I think little of it is stuff that will really address our difference of opinion. --Matthew Faulconer 04:27, 30 Jun 2006 (UTC) (PS I am 99% sure I posted a response earlier but I do not see it now. Very odd.)
Or I am misunderstanding yours? If I understood your post, you are saying that you feel by the Spirit that your child is innocent and should never be harmed, and then you generalize from that feeling to conclude (and now, rationally, I think) that the same would be true of all children. My point is to say that the Spirit has not told you that those soldiers were not to kill those children, but that it has only told you not to harm your own child. The Spirit has, however, told you that the scriptures are true, and so you are presented with two messages from the Spirit that do not contradict, though one message contradicts a conclusion you draw from the other message. The messages themselves, however, do not run up against each other, as far as I can tell.
Now, whether or not I believe God commanded these men to kill these children.... I suppose I should first say that I didn't state any opinion on that in my first comment. I couldn't state my thoughts on the question without a careful exegesis of the text. There may be reason to believe that there were cultural aspects at work here, that our sensibilities are shocked because of our own cultural situation, etc. I don't know without having studied it carefully. In fact, my point was to dislodge the apparent contradiction you feel from that particular text, precisely because--at a simple glance--it does not look to me like there is any reason to doubt that there was such a commandment given, but that we simply are so far removed from the situation--textually if in no other way--to regard it the way you have. Rather, I would suggest we take up a scriptural situation like Abraham/Isaac, where the text bears sustained study of this dilemma.
I don't know if that's clear, really. I hope. Some thoughts, at least. I confess I'm not sure where there is at all a "difference of opinion" here. I didn't recognize one in the first place. I still don't. --Joe Spencer 15:24, 30 Jun 2006 (UTC)
Joe, I don't think I understand this line:
we simply are so far removed from the situation--textually if in no other way--to regard it the way you have.
My next question involves this sentence:
I would suggest we take up a scriptural situation like Abraham/Isaac, where the text bears sustained study of this dilemma.
It seems like one thing we agree is that this text doesn't deal with a dilemma about whether to kill the children. Instead this is about some people who were told to kill everything, didn't obey (they saved the king and some goats) but didn't save the innocent. It is precisely because the text doesn't dwell on this question of whether or not to kill the innocent which suggests that studying the story of Abraham's command to sacrifice Isaac isn't going to somehow rid us of the question which I had--whether God would command Israel to kill all the Amorites even "the infant and suckling."
Finally, I am confused by several statements you make that to me only follow if one believes that I (and presumably all) are commanded to believe that every word in the scriptures is true. Certainly if we are going to invoke the fallibility of scriptures for anything, what nobler reason could we find than this? --Matthew Faulconer 14:38, 3 Jul 2006 (UTC)