Talk:Alma 32:1-5

I shall attempt to go into thoughts upon different things of this chapter. I wish to start from the begining and I wish anyone who would care to comment to do so so that I can learn all that I can about this chapter. I usually write what I have learned and wish to share with others. I love this chapter it has been a very topic of study for many years off and on, so much to learn. Alma at the begining states that he found sucess amoung those who were poor class of people. They were considered to be dross. I was once asked of an investiagtor what dross meant and I had no clue, so to help any that may be in the same boat as I here is what I have learned to be the meaning of dross, (I know I use the dictionary alot in my comments but to me it is a great tool for insight on why words are placed with other words) Dross is defined as in the Easton Bible Dictionary as "The impurities of silver separated from the one in the process of melting" Meaning the part of the silver that is thrown away and cast to be of no worth. So the people that were ready to hear the gospel because they were humble, they were humble because to there brothers they were considered to be of no worth. They were looking for something. I am foing to ponder some more on the first part of this chapter and share more of what I learn later. Any insights on the first verses of this chapter would be very appreciated, I want to get as much out of it as possible. I know it will go into more detail later in the chapter but I am going step by step so I can understand more fully the rest of the chapter.--Jeff Batt 04:25, 20 Oct 2006 (UTC)

I have been thinking more about what is important in this chapters begining verses, In studing I have found dome things that point our why the reason the more poor as of the things of this world are some of the first to be responsive to the gospel. In the book Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon, vol. 3 it states "that for it has been echoed by thousands of missionaries who have been the first to open various cities and regions to the teaching of the gospel; in so doing, they have found that the well-to-do, those resting comfortably in their own self-sufficiency, have little or no interest in their message, while those whose conditions are appreciably more humble are often more willing to listen." why are they more open. Does a sense of security as to worldly things stop one from thinking that they need God? A false sense of security can stop the spirit from longing for God's presence. Paul states "Not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called; but God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: that no flesh should glory in his presence" (Corinthians 1:26-29). Is it any wonder why Christ came among the poor? These things can humble us and have us search for God. I also add though that it also depends where the heart lies. A man can be a begger on the street but if his heart lies in finding gold and always be thinking about riches and still have the same effect as though he were rich. Also a rich man can be humble, but it seems as though a false sense of security in worldy things can often make you forget God. These people who came unto Alma had been despised and thought of as unclean from their brethern that they were humbled and searching for something to lift them up spiritually. Alma knew this and that they would be more responsive to the gospel so he immediatly turned to them. We learn later in this chapter that they are even more blessed those that would humble themselves regardless of what situation they may be in. Their knowledge at the time also was only that they could worship in the church, they were not of the understanding that God could be worshiped anywhere. It was probably taught to them all their lives and so that is what they understood.--Jeff Batt 04:25, 20 Oct 2006 (UTC)

Jeff, these are good thoughts. I have two aspects to add to your thinking, to work into your commentary, etc. First, it is so fascinating to me that Jesus claimed quite clearly that "the poor shall inherit the earth." Though Jesus said "the poor in heart," that is clarified in D&C 88 to be rather stricter: the poor and meek of the earth are to inherit it. There is something significant about that: the poor are the ones who will be saved. Second, closely connected as well, it was recently pointed out to me that the disciples' response to Jesus' "hard as a camel through the eye of a needle" statement is best read contextually as based on a presupposition that the rich were the blessed. In other words, the disciples grew up in a culture (Israelite) that held quite clearly the belief that the rich were the privileged of the Lord (Max Weber's work is being read somewhere in the back of my mind), and Jesus essentially undoes that, reverses it in fact. These two details, introduced to the beginning of this story, are quite significant: the poor receive precisely because the poor are to be exalted. What does that mean? --Joe Spencer 23:53, 15 Oct 2006 (UTC)

I have been doing some more thinking and I have a couple of questions I wanted to throw out here and see if anybody can help. First, does silver have acient symbolic meaning? and if so what is it? Also why do you think the word dross is used to describe the lower class people in this chapter as opposed to other lower class groups in the book of mormon? To my knowledge I beleive this is the only time that the word dross is used in the Book of Mormon, but I could be wrong on that. But if it used in other places could it some how be related becuase it is not used very much? I ask about the silver because that was used in the term dross and seperating the impure silver shavings from the fine silver. I agree with you Joe, that the rich think that they are the exhalted ones. How does that come about? Are they ones that were once faithful and got rich and became prideful and started to look down on those who did not have money. I think of the comment that Brigham Young said, I do not know it exactly but I will summerize, my biggest fear of the saints is that they will became rich and fat and send themselves strait to hell. Are we on the same path of the zormites? This begining of the chapter all to well describes behavior that still goes on. But it is all in the heart of the person, a man can be poor but if all he thinks of is how to gain riches than he is rich in his heart and the circumstances of being poor are have no effect on his spirit. Also a man may have the circumstances of being rich and in his heart he is poor and humble and he can do much good. Or he can be rich and be so poor spiritually that no worldly thing never seems enough to be enough for the person. These are just some thoughts that I wanted to get out. Joe do you happen to know the significance of silver if any in acient times? I'm sure there is but I am not sure what it may be.--Jeff Batt 04:25, 20 Oct 2006 (UTC)

The word "dross" shows up one other time in the Book of Mormon: Alma 34:29. Amulek is speaking there, but on the very same occasion as the present verse. After Alma speaks, Amulek does. What is interesting is that here the historian uses the word "dross," not Alma. It may be that the historian, knowing Amulek's subsequent use of the word, used this word carefully just before the beginning of the discourse so that it would anticipate Amulek's use and open up a sort of irony. I say irony because here the poor Zoramites are explicitly considered as dross. Amulek later tells the Zoramite poor that if they do not remember to be charitable, they will be dross. Amulek's language works on the presupposition that they are not dross, but that they will become dross if they are like the rich Zoramites. Curious irony: those who consider the poor dross are, in the fact, dross themselves. Rather an interesting thing. Other instances of "dross" in the scripture: Ezek 22:18-19 (where it is clear that dross is just other metals, such as brass, tin, and so forth, and the Lord promises to purify Jerusalem by burning out the wicked Israelites), Isa 1:22, 25 (where much the same as Ezekiel's passage is said, in the summary introduction to Isaiah), and three passages in the Psalms and Proverbs (none of which bear a great deal on the meaning here).

As to silver, it shows up a great many times in the scriptures (381 times, apparently). The great majority of Old Testament references describe monetary exchange (csph, the Hebrew word for silver, derivatively means simply "cash," since silver was the most common form of exchange), but there are a few other instances of note. Joseph's divining cup was made of silver, and a great deal of silver was used in the making of the tabernacle and temple, most interestingly for the two trumpets with which the assembly was called to the temple festivals. Idols are often made of silver, though this is probably not a condemnation of the metal. Ps 12:6 compares the word of the Lord to silver, tried seven times in the fire. Perhaps the most significant passage mentioning silver in the OT is Mal 3:3: "And he shall sit as a refiner and purifer of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness." The importance of this passage in the Book of Mormon is quite clear, since it shows up in 3 Ne 24:3. As for the Book of Mormon, only Alma 31:24 seems to be of significance, since Alma there sees that the hearts of the Zoramites were specifically set upon silver. I don't know if another irony is supposed to be at work there, but there is at least the hint of irony. Outside of scripture, it might at least be noticed that silver is a natural antibiotic, one used for centuries before any of the modern ones were discovered (though I don't know that the ancients used silver in this way--my guess is that this began with the alchemists). Anyway, that might help, Jeff. --Joe Spencer 13:51, 17 Oct 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Joe. That helps alot. It is funny how those to think themselves higher than others usually are putting themselves actually lower than who they are putting down. This could also be compared to the wheat and the tares , could it not? Where if they do not watch themselves than they could become just as the tares. Here also lies how satan has lead astray the rich Zoramites leading them into a false sense of security thinking that all is well and that they are the rightous. Just as the time of Christ. Coming into the first verses of this chapter I wondered how much I would learn out of it. I am surprised on how much I have. Thanks--Jeff Batt 04:40, 24 Oct 2006 (UTC)--67.40.112.79 04:39, 24 Oct 2006 (UTC)

Poor in Heart

Matthew, I like the exegesis you've added on "poor in heart." How do you think this phrase connects up with the question of compelled humility vs. voluntary (?) humility? Any thoughts? --Joe Spencer 17:14, 12 February 2007 (CET)

I too find this interesting, esp. b/c the phrases "poor in spirit" (Matt 5:3 and 3 Ne 12:3) and "lowly in heart" both seem to have strictly positive connotations. And my sense is that "poor in heart" is basically what Alma is referring to in subsequent verses when he talks about those who are compelled to be humble.... --RobertC 03:35, 13 February 2007 (CET)