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== Discussion == | == Discussion == | ||
− | ''This | + | ''This section is for detailed discussion such as the meaning of a symbol, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout a passage, or insights that can be further developed in the future. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. →'' |
− | + | Section 19 can be outlined as follows: | |
− | : | + | :• Teachings about the atonement and punishment for sin (1-20) |
+ | ::• all men must suffer for their sins on the day of judgment if they do not repent (3-5) | ||
+ | ::• the length of punishment for sin is not endless, but is instead the punishment meted out by an endless God (6-12) | ||
+ | ::• the Lord commands Martin Harris, in order to avoid that punishment, to repent and obey the commandments received through Joseph Smith (13-15, 20) | ||
+ | ::• the intensity of punishment is that same exquisite pain suffered by Christ during his atonement, the smallest portion of which Martin Harris tasted at the time the Lord withdrew his Spirit (15-20) | ||
− | : | + | :• Instruction to Martin Harris regarding conduct (21-41) |
− | + | ===Verse 6=== | |
+ | It isn't clear what is going on in this verse. | ||
− | + | From reading this section we might come up with the following reading (called "first reading" hereafter). Other places in the scriptures say that those who don't repent (see verse 4), or in other words those found on his left hand in the day of judgment (see verse 5), will receive endless torment. And readers may have presumed that this meant that there would be no end to their torment. However, the Lord explains here that "endless" is another name for himself. Thus what reads "endless torment" can be understood as "God's punishment"--which may have an end. This section (following this same reading) explains that if one fails to repent one can suffer as Christ suffered but still inherit a kingdom of glory after. | |
− | + | Of course, this first reading, goes beyond the text in explaining how someone who suffers as God suffers can inherit a kingdom of glory after "paying" for their sins. But, not without some cause. For the text's stress that "endless torment" does not mean there will be no end to the torment, seems to only have a point if in fact there can be an end to this torment. And in our concept of 3 degrees of glory and outer darkness, the only place left is in one of the degrees of glory. | |
− | + | This first reading though is not without its probems. | |
− | + | First, it seems minor, but it is strange that after explaining how "endless" is a name for God, the phrase "endless torment" is replaced with "God's punishment." See further discussion of this point [[/Torment to punishment|here]]. | |
− | + | More importantly this view doesn't fit all scriptures that mention endless torment. Consider those cases where "endless torment" is mentioned in the scriptures ([[2 Ne 9:19]]-26, [[2 Ne 28:23]], [[Jacob 6:10]], [[Mosiah 3:25]], [[Mosiah 28:3]], [[Moro 8:21]]). We can categorize these in three sets: (a) those which fit well within the interpetation given in the first reading, (b) those which the first interpretation of D&C 19:6 is irrelevant, and (c) those which seem to contradict the first reading. | |
− | : | + | (a) [[Mosiah 28:3]] and [[Moro 8:21]] work well with the intepretation given in the first reading. |
− | + | (b) For [[2 Ne 9:19]]-26, [[2 Ne 28:23]], [[Jacob 6:10]] the first interpretation makes little difference. In these verses endless torment is not used to describe the torment received by someone but rather a place some will go as punishment. Since these verses don't tell us that someone who goes there cannot return, the place can be a place forever of torment without any particular person ever having to stay there forever. | |
− | : | + | (c) [[Mosiah 3:25]] is at odds with the first reading. In [[Mosiah 3:24|the previous verse]] King Benjamin tells the people that at the judgment day people will be judged according to their works, either good or evil. Then in verse 25, King Benjamin says that those who are judged evil will "shrink ... into a state of misery and endless torment, from whence they can no more return." The difficulty here is that substituting "endless torment" for God's punishment is insufficient to suggest (as needed for the first reading) that this punishment can end because we still have the clause "from whence they can no more return." |
− | : | + | We must also consider [[D&C 76:44]], given two years after this revelation. Though it doesn't specifically use the phrase "endless torment," it does use the phrase "endless punishment" and identifies that with torment. The [[D&C 76]] revelation is prompted by Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon meditating on the meaning of [[John 5:29]]. John 5:29 says that those who have done good are resurrected "unto the resurrection of life" while those who have done evil are resurrected "unto the resurrection of damnation." It seems the question in their mind was something like "what is a resurrection of damnation" or maybe "who will receive this resurrection of damnation." If we look at verse 44 as an answer to those question we get: All except the sons of perdition receive the resurrection of life and only the sons of perdition receive the resurrection of damnation. |
− | + | But if we take this section to be telling us that at least some who receive "endless punishment" can have an end to their punishment and we assume that [[D&C 76:44]] tells us that the sons of perdition cannot have an end to their punishment and then we are left with the odd idea that those discussed in this section as not repenting are those who are resurrected to a resurrection of life. This is odd because John is suggests that in the good from evil division John makes those who do evil and do not repent fall in the good bucket. | |
− | + | Another possibility is that the sons of perdition do not receive a punishment with no end. That is what this verse (verse 6) is saying. Though this seems to contradict [[D&C 76:44]], a closer reading reveals that [[D&C 76:44]] never explicitly says that there will be no end to their punishment only that the place of punishment has no end--just like the verses discussed in the paragraph above labeled (b). | |
− | + | Another possibility is that the resurrection of damnation is not a resurrection only the sons of perdition receive, but rather, all who do not repent. It is a resurrection of damnation because, as is explained in this section, those who receive it will have to suffer as Christ suffered. This is explained in this section. What D&C 76 teaches us is that in the group of those who receive a resurrection of damnation the sons of perdition hold a special place because they are not saved after their sufferings. | |
− | + | Another possibility is that the sons of perdition do receive a torment that has no end and that King Benjamin was referring to the sons of perdition when he says that says that they cannot return from their torment. | |
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− | + | Another possibility is that King Benjamin was wrong when saying that those whose works are judged evil will suffer a torment that has no end. In verse 8 of this section Christ tells us that he is going to explain a mystery known by his apostles. The mystery is that endless torment doesn't mean no end to torment. King Benjamin did not know this mystery. Given what he did know, it was reasonable for him to say that there would not be an end to people's torment whose works had been judged evil. But in light of the knowledge we have from this section, we know that this was wrong. | |
− | + | <nowiki>[Note these are not mutually exclusive possibilities. This needs further work to clarify the relationship between these possibilities.]</nowiki> | |
− | : | + | '''* 19:16-20:''' See [[Lev 16:1]]-5 Discussion page for Day of Atonement article by Janet Lisonbee |
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− | + | == Complete outline and page map == | |
+ | |||
+ | ''This heading contains an outline for the entire section. Items in blue or purple text indicate hyperlinked pages that address specific portions of this section. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. →'' | ||
== Unanswered questions == | == Unanswered questions == | ||
− | ''This | + | ''This section is for questions along the lines of "I still don't understand ..." Please do not be shy. The point of these questions is to identify things that still need to be addressed on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. →'' |
== Prompts for life application == | == Prompts for life application == | ||
− | ''This | + | ''This section is for prompts that suggest ways in which a passage can influence a person's life. Prompts may be appropriate either for private self reflection or for a class discussion. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. →'' |
== Prompts for further study == | == Prompts for further study == | ||
− | ''This | + | ''This section is for prompts that invite us to think about a passage more deeply or in a new way. These are not necessarily questions that beg for answers, but rather prompts along the lines of "Have you ever thought about ..." Prompts are most helpful when they are developed individually, thoughtfully, and with enough background information to clearly indicate a particular direction for further study or thought. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. →'' |
− | + | ===Verse 8=== | |
+ | * ''"Even as mine apostles."'' What apostles does this verse refer to? Is this referring to a particular mystery that the apostles knew about, or is this referring more to a general kind of knowing mysteries—for example, understanding the parables Jesus taught (cf. [[Matt 13:11]]; [[Mark 4:11]]; [[Luke 8:10]])? | ||
− | * | + | * 19:11-15: What does this passage teach about the Savior’s suffering for us? |
− | * | + | * 19:11-15: Why was Jesus willing to experience such great suffering for us? |
− | + | ===Verse 21=== | |
+ | What do "these things" refer to? | ||
− | + | ===Verse 28=== | |
+ | * Is there a difference between praying before the world and praying in public? Or praying in secret and praying in private? | ||
== Resources == | == Resources == | ||
− | ''This | + | ''This section is for listing links and print resources, including those that are also cited elsewhere on this page. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. →'' |
'''Previous editions.''' | '''Previous editions.''' | ||
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'''Other resources.''' | '''Other resources.''' | ||
− | * | + | * 19:16-20: Keith R. Edwards, "[http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-646-36,00.html That They Might Know Thee]," ''Ensign'', Nov 2006, pp. 99–101. Elder Edwards said: "The great and exquisite suffering of the Savior was for us, to keep us from having to suffer as He suffered. However, suffering is a part of life, and few will escape its grasp. Since it is something that each of us has gone through, is going through, or will go through, there is scriptural suggestion that we can learn spiritual lessons if we can approach suffering, sorrow, or grief with a focus on Christ." |
== Notes == | == Notes == |