Talk:2 Ne 25:9-27:35 - Revision history

KurtElieson: KurtElieson moved page Talk:2 Ne 25:20-30 to Talk:2 Ne 25:9-27:35: Regrouping content

2015-10-11T04:27:28Z

KurtElieson moved page Talk:2 Ne 25:20-30 to Talk:2 Ne 25:9-27:35: Regrouping content

KurtElieson: Moving content to regrouped page

2014-01-08T15:38:11Z

Moving content to regrouped page

KurtElieson: moved Talk:2 Ne 25:21-25 to Talk:2 Ne 25:20-30: Regrouping pages by pericope

2014-01-08T15:29:28Z

moved Talk:2 Ne 25:21-25 to Talk:2 Ne 25:20-30: Regrouping pages by pericope

Matthewfaulconer: /* Prevenient Grace Again */ never mind

2008-07-07T05:34:54Z

‎Prevenient Grace Again: never mind

RobertC: /* Prevenient Grace Again */ signing

2008-07-05T06:05:46Z

‎Prevenient Grace Again: signing

RobertC: /* Prevenient Grace Again */ convenient shorthand is all....

2008-07-05T06:05:09Z

‎Prevenient Grace Again: convenient shorthand is all....

Matthewfaulconer: /* Prevenient Grace Again */ forgot signature...again!

2008-06-30T05:00:53Z

‎Prevenient Grace Again: forgot signature...again!

Matthewfaulconer: /* Prevenient Grace Again */ any reason for the technical term?

2008-06-30T04:58:38Z

‎Prevenient Grace Again: any reason for the technical term?

Joe Spencer: /* after=despite */

2007-06-16T20:02:55Z

‎after=despite

RobertC: /* after=despite */ nice changes

2007-06-16T14:26:02Z

‎after=despite: nice changes

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		+	== Verse 20 ==
		+
		+	Scriptures using the phrase "none other name" seem to be quite familiar. So it was surprising to only find it in 3 verses; one each in the New Testament, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine & Covenants.
		+	:Acts 4: 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
		+	:D&C 18: 23 Behold, Jesus Christ is the name which is given of the Father, and there is none other name given whereby man can be saved;
		+	:Two other verses use "no" instead of "none:"
		+	:Mosiah 3: 17 that there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men,
		+	:Mosiah 5: 8 There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ,
		+
		+	--[[User:RM Matheson\|RM Matheson]] 10:02 2005 Nov 12
		+
		+	RM,
		+
		+	Nice cross-references. I'm pasting these on a user subpage and creating a link to them on the commentary page so that they don't get lost. Discussion pages will probably get archived after they get too long, and I'd hate to see these x-refs get archived.
		+
		+	--[[User:RobertC\|RobertC]] 13:45, 14 Nov 2005 (UTC)
		+
		+	==Why "nations" not "individuals" in v. 20?==
		+
		+	I think this is an interesting question and I'd love to hear others' thoughts. I think the use of "the nations" sheds light on Moses' calling to redeem the nation of Israel. This brings to mind a section from the book ''The Literary Message of Isaiah'' by Avraham Gileadi where he discusses the Davidic covenant and how it works in contrast to the Sinai covenant. Under the Sinai covenant, Israel as a nation must be righteous down to the last man, whereas under the Davidic covenant, only the king needs to be righteous to warrant the Lord's protection. The point is that both of these covenants pertain to Israel as a nation, not Israelites individually. I think there's a lot to learn and study regarding God's covenants with Israel as a nation in the scriptures--things that I think challenge our contemporary emphasis on individual responsibility and worthiness, an emphasis that often ignores or at least taints our perspective on the inter-dependent aspects of blessings and salvation.
		+
		+	--[[User:RobertC\|RobertC]] 14:15, 14 Nov 2005 (UTC)
		+
		+
	==Prevenient grace==		==Prevenient grace==
	I edited out the reference to [[Mosiah 5:15]] and Hymn 243 since I did not see the relevance to the idea of prevenient grace. I may be missing the relationship, or possibly my explanation was poor and the anonymous poster misunderstood. At any rate, I'm posting what I edited here in hopes that others can help me better represent this viewpoint (perhaps I am too close to the issue to understand the point that was being made):		I edited out the reference to [[Mosiah 5:15]] and Hymn 243 since I did not see the relevance to the idea of prevenient grace. I may be missing the relationship, or possibly my explanation was poor and the anonymous poster misunderstood. At any rate, I'm posting what I edited here in hopes that others can help me better represent this viewpoint (perhaps I am too close to the issue to understand the point that was being made):

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	:::I agree that the term ''prevenient'' is probably not ideal, so I welcome any revisions that nix the term. It does seem to be a convenient shorthand, however, for the idea that grace precedes works in some (however vague) sense. At least that's the reason I used the term when I was working on the commentary--I simply couldn't think of another way to conveniently refer to this idea (which was important central to how I was thinking about this passage then). --[[User:RobertC\|RobertC]] 08:05, 5 July 2008 (CEST)		:::I agree that the term ''prevenient'' is probably not ideal, so I welcome any revisions that nix the term. It does seem to be a convenient shorthand, however, for the idea that grace precedes works in some (however vague) sense. At least that's the reason I used the term when I was working on the commentary--I simply couldn't think of another way to conveniently refer to this idea (which was important central to how I was thinking about this passage then). --[[User:RobertC\|RobertC]] 08:05, 5 July 2008 (CEST)
		+
		+
		+	::::Well, I tried, but didn't come up with anything better. I would like to think that a discussion of this verse could dwell entirely on the scriptures--which is why I wanted to reject a term which is foreign to the scriptures--a term that is situated within a debate foreign to Nephi. In my mind I'd like to think that there is a difference between using the scripture to inform the debate and using the debate to inform the scripture. Following that view, I wanted to reject the idea that we needed this debate highlighted by the word "prevenient" (so foreign to Nephi) to understand the scripture. But the fact that I wasn't able to figure out any good way of rewriting this section calls into question my premise that we should separate out the concepts of a debate informing a scripture vs the scripture informing the debate. Myabe I'll return to this again later. Thanks, --[[User:Matthewfaulconer\|Matthew Faulconer]] 07:34, 7 July 2008 (CEST)

	== after=despite ==		== after=despite ==

@@ Line 40: / Line 40: @@
 ::I'm wondering if this section might be improved if we removed reference to the term "prevenient grace." I'm not sure what the terms adds here. Thoughts? --[[User:Matthewfaulconer|Matthew Faulconer]] 07:00, 30 June 2008 (CEST)
-:::I agree that the term ''prevenient'' is probably not ideal, so I welcome any revisions that nix the term. It does seem to be a convenient shorthand, however, for the idea that grace precedes works in some (however vague) sense. At least that's the reason I used the term when I was working on the commentary--I simply couldn't think of another way to conveniently refer to this idea (which was important central to how I was thinking about this passage then).
+:::I agree that the term ''prevenient'' is probably not ideal, so I welcome any revisions that nix the term. It does seem to be a convenient shorthand, however, for the idea that grace precedes works in some (however vague) sense. At least that's the reason I used the term when I was working on the commentary--I simply couldn't think of another way to conveniently refer to this idea (which was important central to how I was thinking about this passage then). --[[User:RobertC|RobertC]] 08:05, 5 July 2008 (CEST)
 == after=despite ==

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:05, 5 July 2008
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	::I'm wondering if this section might be improved if we removed reference to the term "prevenient grace." I'm not sure what the terms adds here. Thoughts? --[[User:Matthewfaulconer\|Matthew Faulconer]] 07:00, 30 June 2008 (CEST)		::I'm wondering if this section might be improved if we removed reference to the term "prevenient grace." I'm not sure what the terms adds here. Thoughts? --[[User:Matthewfaulconer\|Matthew Faulconer]] 07:00, 30 June 2008 (CEST)
		+
		+	:::I agree that the term ''prevenient'' is probably not ideal, so I welcome any revisions that nix the term. It does seem to be a convenient shorthand, however, for the idea that grace precedes works in some (however vague) sense. At least that's the reason I used the term when I was working on the commentary--I simply couldn't think of another way to conveniently refer to this idea (which was important central to how I was thinking about this passage then).

	== after=despite ==		== after=despite ==

@@ Line 38: / Line 38: @@
 :Hmmm, not sure any of this is really helpful or very accurate, but some thinking anyway....  --[[User:RobertC|RobertC]] 16:53, 2 April 2007 (CEST)
-::I'm wondering if this section might be improved if we removed reference to the term "prevenient grace." I'm not sure what the terms adds here. Thoughts?
+::I'm wondering if this section might be improved if we removed reference to the term "prevenient grace." I'm not sure what the terms adds here. Thoughts? --[[User:Matthewfaulconer|Matthew Faulconer]] 07:00, 30 June 2008 (CEST)
 == after=despite ==

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	:Hmmm, not sure any of this is really helpful or very accurate, but some thinking anyway.... --[[User:RobertC\|RobertC]] 16:53, 2 April 2007 (CEST)		:Hmmm, not sure any of this is really helpful or very accurate, but some thinking anyway.... --[[User:RobertC\|RobertC]] 16:53, 2 April 2007 (CEST)
		+
		+	::I'm wondering if this section might be improved if we removed reference to the term "prevenient grace." I'm not sure what the terms adds here. Thoughts?

	== after=despite ==		== after=despite ==

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:02, 16 June 2007
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	:Good changes, Matthew. I'm still a bit curious about Lambert's claim [http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/06/ostler-on-salvation-part-1/261/#comment-20695 here] regarding "despite" and Joseph Smith's French translation, but I doubt I'll get around to trying to track this down anytime soon. And I'd like to work on this commentary much more at some point.... --[[User:RobertC\|RobertC]] 16:26, 16 June 2007 (CEST)		:Good changes, Matthew. I'm still a bit curious about Lambert's claim [http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/06/ostler-on-salvation-part-1/261/#comment-20695 here] regarding "despite" and Joseph Smith's French translation, but I doubt I'll get around to trying to track this down anytime soon. And I'd like to work on this commentary much more at some point.... --[[User:RobertC\|RobertC]] 16:26, 16 June 2007 (CEST)
		+
		+	We don't quote authors, but Stephen Robinson's reading of this is, of course, pretty interesting as well. I'll see if there is some appropriate way to work it in. --[[User:Joe Spencer\|Joe Spencer]] 22:02, 16 June 2007 (CEST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:26, 16 June 2007
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	I took out the reference to Joseph Smith's translation as supporting this reading and the associated link. I think little was added which the dictionary.com didn't already illuminate. The only difference is the appeal to Joseph Smith. But I wasn't clear on where the quote was from. Who is Lambert? From what book? Also I was bothered that lambert refers to "an authority." Who? For these reasons I thought it best to remove the reference until someone can provide some authority for the 2 claims therein a) Joseph Smith translating this into French b) after could mean despite in Joseph Smith's day just like it can today. --[[User:Matthewfaulconer\|Matthew Faulconer]] 07:38, 16 June 2007 (CEST)		I took out the reference to Joseph Smith's translation as supporting this reading and the associated link. I think little was added which the dictionary.com didn't already illuminate. The only difference is the appeal to Joseph Smith. But I wasn't clear on where the quote was from. Who is Lambert? From what book? Also I was bothered that lambert refers to "an authority." Who? For these reasons I thought it best to remove the reference until someone can provide some authority for the 2 claims therein a) Joseph Smith translating this into French b) after could mean despite in Joseph Smith's day just like it can today. --[[User:Matthewfaulconer\|Matthew Faulconer]] 07:38, 16 June 2007 (CEST)
		+
		+	:Good changes, Matthew. I'm still a bit curious about Lambert's claim [http://www.newcoolthang.com/index.php/2006/06/ostler-on-salvation-part-1/261/#comment-20695 here] regarding "despite" and Joseph Smith's French translation, but I doubt I'll get around to trying to track this down anytime soon. And I'd like to work on this commentary much more at some point.... --[[User:RobertC\|RobertC]] 16:26, 16 June 2007 (CEST)