Job 1:6-10 - Revision history

KurtElieson: Turning page into redirect after moving content

2014-01-21T15:54:28Z

Turning page into redirect after moving content

RobertC: /* Verse 9 */ more reworking

2007-08-17T08:58:14Z

‎Verse 9: more reworking

RobertC: /* Related links */ links to "disinterested love" posts

2007-08-17T08:37:45Z

‎Related links: links to "disinterested love" posts

RobertC: /* Exegesis */ reworking, esp. "disinterested" part

2007-08-17T08:33:47Z

‎Exegesis: reworking, esp. "disinterested" part

Matthewfaulconer: edits

2007-08-17T07:13:18Z

edits

Matthewfaulconer: /* Verses 6-12 */ changing.

2007-08-17T04:11:01Z

‎Verses 6-12: changing.

RobertC: cleaning up a little

2007-08-16T16:03:40Z

cleaning up a little

RobertC: more theological rambling on v. 9

2007-08-16T15:44:04Z

more theological rambling on v. 9

RobertC: /* Lexical notes */ typo

2007-08-16T14:28:12Z

‎Lexical notes: typo

RobertC: /* Lexical notes */ v. 10

2007-08-16T14:27:37Z

‎Lexical notes: v. 10

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-[[The Old Testament]] > [[Job]] > [[Job 1|Chapter 1]]
+#REDIRECT [[Job 1:1-2:10]]
-{|
-| [[Job 1:1-5|Previous (Job 1:1-5)]]  || &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; || [[Job 1:11-15|Next (Job 1:11-15)]]
-|}
-== Questions ==
-* ''Click the edit link above and to the right to add questions''
-−
-−
-== Lexical notes ==
-===Verse 6===
-* Hebrew uses a definite article to describe Satan as "''the'' Satan," where Satan means "accuser."  It seems unwarranted to assume that Satan, the accuser, here is the same person as, say, Lucifer in [[D&C 76:26]].
-−
-===Verse 10===
-* "''Hedge."''  Compare the protection and safety of Israel in [[Ps 80:12]]; [[Isa 5:1]]-7; [[2 Sam 7:1]], 10.  Also, in a more cosmological framework, see [[Gen 1:6]]-9; [[Ps 104:5]]-9; [[Ps 148:6]]; [[Job 38:8]]-11.
-−
-* ''"Blessed his work."''  Compare [[Alma 30:17]] where Korihor teaches "that there could be no atonement made for the sins of men, but every man fared in this life according to the management of the creature; therefore every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength."  The issue here is similar in that it seems to be questioning the link between prosperity and a cause for that prosperity.  However, whereas Korihor seems to teach that prosperity is caused by an individual's genius or strength, the question here in Job seems to be more about God himself being the cause of Job's prosperity (and, hence, Job's piety).
-−
-== Exegesis ==
-===Verses 6-12===
-This passage seems troubling if it seems to suggest that God is allowing Job to be tried in order to win a bet, or, that God doubts himself and needs to test Job in order to restore his pride in the fact that others love him for nobler reasons than simply because God blesses them with prosperity.  However, there are better ways to read this passage as shown below.
-−
-===Verse 6===
-Satan (see lexical note above) approaches the LORD in a council setting where deliberation occurs.  The setting suggests that the ensuing scene should be taken as an elaboration on such deliberation.  That is, it seems that the Book of Job is being introduced as an overtly theological text.
-−
-===Verse 7===
-The LORD is the first to speak asking Satan where he has come from.  Satan's response is brief and rather vague.  This might be taken as Satan having been up to no good; or perhaps Satan has simply been "doing his job," looking for opportunities to accuse others (for more on this view, see Janzen, referenced below, p. 39).
-−
-===Verse 8===
-After Satan mentions that he's been roaming the earth, the LORD asks if Satan has considered Job who is "a perfect and an upright man."  Although this might be taken as the LORD bragging, there does not seem to be anything that explicitly warrants this idea.  In fact, since the LORD is the initiator of this conversation, it seems that if there is any leading or "baiting" going on in this discussion, the LORD is intentionally bringing Satan into this discussion rather than vice versa.  But why would the LORD initiate such discussion?  This may be a literary device that is employed in order to, again, cast the story of Job in a theological light (e.g. why does God allow suffering, and what does it mean to love God "disinterestedly," that is, for nobler reasons than simply because God blesses us with prosperity?).  Or, perhaps the LORD is effectively chastising Satan for not doing his Job carefully enough&mdash;that is, the LORD may be indeed wanting to establish the claim that Job is "a perfect and an upright man" and is leading Satan toward the somewhat inevitable accusation that Job has not been sufficiently tried.
-−
-===Verse 9===
-The question of motivation-for-worship is explicitly introduced here: "Doth Job fear God ''for nought''?" (cf. [[Gen 29:15]]; [[Isa 52:3]]).  Although the Book of Job is often taken as a theological treatise on the problem of evil, the explicit theme introduced here is a question of ''why'' one (Job) fears God.  Presumably, Job would be a praiseworthy individual if (and only if) he feared God "for nought."  If Job (perhaps, like Adam, typological of all humankind) is to withstand accusations, it seems he must be able, in some sense, to ''prove'' (cf. [[Abr 3:25]]; see also [[Gen 22:1]] where the somewhat awkward word "tempt" is used in the KJV, instead of the more common translation "tested") that his fear of the LORD is not simply a result of the blessings Job has received, such as those articulated in verse 10.
-−
-The question of fearing God "for nought" can be thought about in several ways.  One way to think of this is in a very strict sense: ''any'' reason to fear God to fear God would violate the implicit "for nought" requirement suggested here.  This, however, may be a reading that takes the text too strictly and/or systematically.  For another kind of reading, we might think more carefully about different ways an individual can fear God.  Janzen (see reference below) discusses this in terms of Bernard of Clairvaux's stages of human growth.  According to Bernard, a 12th century monk, one begins first by loving ''oneself'' for one's own sake, then progresses to loving ''God'' for one's own sake, and then finally loving God ''for God's own sake''.  This 3rd stage of development, loving God for God's own sake, is considered more noble because it is considered less selfish.  That is, if we love God ''only'' because he blesses us, then this is a rather shallow notion of love.
-−
-This way of thinking about different motivations for loving someone casts the theological question of Job in a way that parallels many themes in other scripture, esp. the way love, grace, and hypocrisy are talked about in the New Testament.  For example, Jesus teaches that one should love not just one's friends, but one's enemies also ([[Matt 5:43]]-47)&mdash;loving one's enemies is, presumably, a more noble, pure, and "disinterested" kind of love ("disinterested" in the sense of not having an ulterior motive or interest) because there does not seem to be a selfish reason for loving one's enemies.  To love our friends is no great accomplishment (so do the publicans, Jesus says) since friends typically do nice things for us, and they have traits that make them easy to love.  In contrast, our enemies typically try to harm us and have traits that make it, for whatever reason, difficult to love them.  So, loving one's enemies is a more noble kind of love than loving one's friends because it is more obviously unselfish.
-−
-This does not mean, however, that we should think about God as Job's enemy.  Although God will allow Job to be afflicted, God's primary interest seems to be to defend Job from the accusation of fearing God merely out of selfish interests.  The main question being posed, then, is not about God's love of Job; rather, it is about Job's love of God.  Again, for Job's piety to be properly ''proven'' (at least to Satan, but perhaps also to God, and/or the divine council, and/or to Job himself), it seems Job's prosperity must be taken away.
-−
-===Verse 10===
-For the LDS reader, the question of a hedge here may recall the discussion of "opposition" in [[2 Ne 2]].  If the purpose of life is to be tested or proved such that each person can ''choose'' between liberty and eternal life or everlasting death (cf. [[2 Ne 2:27]] and [[2 Ne 10:23]]), then Satan's accusation here seems to be that Job has not ''really'' been tested, since his choosing of God so far has perhaps been motivated by the prosperity which God has blessed him with.  When Adam and Eve are cast out of the Garden of Eden, God promises that life will be hard for Adam and Eve (cf. [[Gen 2:17]]-19; note also the "good ''and evil'' in [[Moses 5:11]]).  In this sense, there seems to be a similar theological current at work between evil and hardship in the Book of Job and the creation story.
-−
-== Related links ==
-* [http://www.amazon.com/Interpretation-Bible-Commentary-Teaching-Preaching/dp/0804231141 Janzen, J. Gerald.  ''Job''] (1985, Westminster John Knox Press), part of the "Interpretation, a Bible Commentary for Teaching and Preaching" series, ISBN-10: 0804231141, ISBN-13: 978-0804231145.
-−
-* ''"Disinterested" love of God.''  See [http://coldandcalculating.blogspot.com/2006/11/husband-santa-business-partner-or-john.html this blog post] (and those linked to therein) by BrianJ and [http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=3601 this blog post] by Jim F. regarding selfish motives for loving God.
-−
-----
-{|
-| [[Job 1:1-5|Previous (Job 1:1-5)]]  || &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; || [[Job 1:11-15|Next (Job 1:11-15)]]
-|}

@@ Line 34: / Line 34: @@
 The question of fearing God "for nought" can be thought about in several ways.  One way to think of this is in a very strict sense: ''any'' reason to fear God to fear God would violate the implicit "for nought" requirement suggested here.  This, however, may be a reading that takes the text too strictly and/or systematically.  For another kind of reading, we might think more carefully about different ways an individual can fear God.  Janzen (see reference below) discusses this in terms of Bernard of Clairvaux's stages of human growth.  According to Bernard, a 12th century monk, one begins first by loving ''oneself'' for one's own sake, then progresses to loving ''God'' for one's own sake, and then finally loving God ''for God's own sake''.  This 3rd stage of development, loving God for God's own sake, is considered more noble because it is considered less selfish.  That is, if we love God ''only'' because he blesses us, then this is a rather shallow notion of love.
-This way of thinking about different motivations for loving someone casts the theological question of Job in a way that parallels many themes in other scripture, esp. the way love, grace, and hypocrisy are talked about in the New Testament.  For example, Jesus teaches that one should love not just one's friends, but one's enemies also ([[Matt 5:43]]-47)&mdash;loving one's enemies is, presumably, a more noble, pure, and "disinterested" kind of love ("disinterested" in the sense of not having an ulterior motive or interest).  However, to think about God as Job's enemy would seem to go too far.  The question being posed here in the Book of Job is not about God's love of Job; rather, it is about Job's love of God.  Again, for Job's piety to be properly ''proven'' (at least to Satan, but perhaps also to God, and/or the divine council, and/or to Job himself), it seems Job's prosperity must be taken away.
+This way of thinking about different motivations for loving someone casts the theological question of Job in a way that parallels many themes in other scripture, esp. the way love, grace, and hypocrisy are talked about in the New Testament.  For example, Jesus teaches that one should love not just one's friends, but one's enemies also ([[Matt 5:43]]-47)&mdash;loving one's enemies is, presumably, a more noble, pure, and "disinterested" kind of love ("disinterested" in the sense of not having an ulterior motive or interest) because there does not seem to be a selfish reason for loving one's enemies.  To love our friends is no great accomplishment (so do the publicans, Jesus says) since friends typically do nice things for us, and they have traits that make them easy to love.  In contrast, our enemies typically try to harm us and have traits that make it, for whatever reason, difficult to love them.  So, loving one's enemies is a more noble kind of love than loving one's friends because it is more obviously unselfish.
 ===Verse 10===

@@ Line 41: / Line 41: @@
 == Related links ==
 * [http://www.amazon.com/Interpretation-Bible-Commentary-Teaching-Preaching/dp/0804231141 Janzen, J. Gerald.  ''Job''] (1985, Westminster John Knox Press), part of the "Interpretation, a Bible Commentary for Teaching and Preaching" series, ISBN-10: 0804231141, ISBN-13: 978-0804231145.
 ----

@@ Line 18: / Line 18: @@
 == Exegesis ==
 ===Verses 6-12===
-This passage seems troubling if it seems to suggest that God is allowing Job to be tried in order to win a bet, or, that God doubts himself and needs to test Job in order to restore his pride in the fact that others love him disinterestedly. However, there are better ways to read this passage as shown below.
+This passage seems troubling if it seems to suggest that God is allowing Job to be tried in order to win a bet, or, that God doubts himself and needs to test Job in order to restore his pride in the fact that others love him for nobler reasons than simply because God blesses them with prosperity.  However, there are better ways to read this passage as shown below.
 ===Verse 6===
@@ Line 27: / Line 27: @@
 ===Verse 8===
-After Satan mentions that he's been roaming the earth, the LORD asks if Satan has considered Job who is "a perfect and an upright man."  Although this might be taken as the LORD bragging, there does not seem to be anything that explicitly warrants this idea.  In fact, since the LORD is the initiator of this conversation, it seems that if there is any leading or "baiting" going on in this discussion, the LORD is intentionally bringing Satan into this discussion rather than vice versa.  But why would the LORD initiate such discussion?  This may be a literary device that is employed in order to, again, cast the story of Job in a theological light (e.g. why does God allow suffering, and what does it mean to love God disinterestedly?).  Or, perhaps the LORD is effectively chastising Satan for not doing his Job carefully enough&mdash;that is, the LORD may be indeed wanting to establish the claim that Job is "a perfect and an upright man" and is leading Satan toward the somewhat inevitable accusation that Job has not been sufficiently tried.
+After Satan mentions that he's been roaming the earth, the LORD asks if Satan has considered Job who is "a perfect and an upright man."  Although this might be taken as the LORD bragging, there does not seem to be anything that explicitly warrants this idea.  In fact, since the LORD is the initiator of this conversation, it seems that if there is any leading or "baiting" going on in this discussion, the LORD is intentionally bringing Satan into this discussion rather than vice versa.  But why would the LORD initiate such discussion?  This may be a literary device that is employed in order to, again, cast the story of Job in a theological light (e.g. why does God allow suffering, and what does it mean to love God "disinterestedly," that is, for nobler reasons than simply because God blesses us with prosperity?).  Or, perhaps the LORD is effectively chastising Satan for not doing his Job carefully enough&mdash;that is, the LORD may be indeed wanting to establish the claim that Job is "a perfect and an upright man" and is leading Satan toward the somewhat inevitable accusation that Job has not been sufficiently tried.
 ===Verse 9===
-The question of disinterested obedience is explicitly introduced here: "Doth Job fear God ''for nought''?" (cf. [[Gen 29:15]]; [[Isa 52:3]]).  Although the Book of Job is often taken as a theological treatise on the problem of evil, the explicit theme introduced here seems to be a question of dis/interested fear of God.  Presumably, Job would indeed be a praiseworthy individual if he feared God "for nought."  If Job (perhaps, like Adam, typological of all humankind) is to withstand accusations, it seems he must be able, in some sense, to ''prove'' (cf. [[Abr 3:25]]; see also [[Gen 22:1]] where the somewhat awkward word "tempt" is used in the KJV, instead of the more common translation "tested") that his fear of the LORD is not simply a result of the blessings Job has received, such as those articulated in verse 10.
+The question of motivation-for-worship is explicitly introduced here: "Doth Job fear God ''for nought''?" (cf. [[Gen 29:15]]; [[Isa 52:3]]).  Although the Book of Job is often taken as a theological treatise on the problem of evil, the explicit theme introduced here is a question of ''why'' one (Job) fears God.  Presumably, Job would be a praiseworthy individual if (and only if) he feared God "for nought."  If Job (perhaps, like Adam, typological of all humankind) is to withstand accusations, it seems he must be able, in some sense, to ''prove'' (cf. [[Abr 3:25]]; see also [[Gen 22:1]] where the somewhat awkward word "tempt" is used in the KJV, instead of the more common translation "tested") that his fear of the LORD is not simply a result of the blessings Job has received, such as those articulated in verse 10.
-The question of fearing God "for nought" can be thought about in several ways.  One way to think of this is in a very strict sense: ''any'' reason to fear God to fear God would violate the implicit "for nought" requirement suggested here.  This, however, may be a reading that takes the text too strictly and/or systematically.  For another kind of reading, we might think more carefully about different ways an individual might fear God.  Janzen (see reference below) discusses this in terms of Bernard of Clairvaux's  stages of human growth.  According to Bernard, one begins first by loving oneself for one's own sake, then loving God for one's own sake, and then finally loving God for God's own sake.  This way of thinking about different motivations for loving someone casts the theological question of Job in a way that parallels many themes in other scripture, esp. the way love, grace, and hypocrisy are talked about in the New Testament.  For example, Jesus teaches that one should love not just one's friends, but one's enemies also ([[Matt 5:43]]-47)&mdash;loving one's enemies is, presumably, a more noble, pure, and disinterested kind of love.  However, to think about God as Job's enemy would seem to go too far.  The question being posed here in the Book of Job is not about God's love of Job; rather, it is about Job's love of God.  Again, for Job's piety to be properly ''proven'' (at least to Satan, but perhaps also to God, and/or the divine council, and/or to Job himself), it seems Job's prosperity must be taken away.
+The question of fearing God "for nought" can be thought about in several ways.  One way to think of this is in a very strict sense: ''any'' reason to fear God to fear God would violate the implicit "for nought" requirement suggested here.  This, however, may be a reading that takes the text too strictly and/or systematically.  For another kind of reading, we might think more carefully about different ways an individual can fear God.  Janzen (see reference below) discusses this in terms of Bernard of Clairvaux's stages of human growth.  According to Bernard, a 12th century monk, one begins first by loving ''oneself'' for one's own sake, then progresses to loving ''God'' for one's own sake, and then finally loving God ''for God's own sake''.  This 3rd stage of development, loving God for God's own sake, is considered more noble because it is considered less selfish.  That is, if we love God ''only'' because he blesses us, then this is a rather shallow notion of love.
 ===Verse 10===

@@ Line 8: / Line 8: @@
 == Lexical notes ==
 ===Verse 10===
 * "''Hedge."''  Compare the protection and safety of Israel in [[Ps 80:12]]; [[Isa 5:1]]-7; [[2 Sam 7:1]], 10.  Also, in a more cosmological framework, see [[Gen 1:6]]-9; [[Ps 104:5]]-9; [[Ps 148:6]]; [[Job 38:8]]-11.
@@ Line 18: / Line 21: @@
 ===Verse 6===
-First, notice that Satan comes ''among'' the sons of God in a divine council setting.  In fact, Hebrew uses a definite article to describe Satan as "''the'' Satan," where Satan means "accuser."  It seems unwarranted to assume that Satan, the accuser, here is the same person as, say, Lucifer in [[D&C 76:26]].  Regardless, the point is that this accuser approaches the LORD in a council setting where deliberation occurs.  The setting suggests that the ensuing scene should be taken as an elaboration on such deliberation.  That is, it seems that the Book of Job is being introduced as an overtly theological text.
+Satan (see lexical note above) approaches the LORD in a council setting where deliberation occurs.  The setting suggests that the ensuing scene should be taken as an elaboration on such deliberation.  That is, it seems that the Book of Job is being introduced as an overtly theological text.
 ===Verse 7===
@@ Line 27: / Line 30: @@
 ===Verse 9===
-The question of disinterested obedience is explicitly introduced here: "Doth Job fear God ''for nought''?" (cf. [[Gen 29:15]]; [[Isa 52:3]]).  Although the Book of Job is often taken as a theological treatise on the problem of evil, the explicit theme introduced here seems to be a question of dis/interested fear of God.  Presumably, Job would indeed be a praiseworthy individual if he feared God "for nought."  If Job, perhaps typological like Adam of all humankind, is to withstand accusations, it seems he must be able, at least in some sense, ''prove'' (cf. [[Abr 3:25]]; see also [[Gen 22:1]] where the somewhat awkward word "tempt" is used in the KJV, instead of the more common translation "tested") that his fear of the LORD is not simply a result of the blessings Job has received, such as those articulated in verse 10.
+The question of disinterested obedience is explicitly introduced here: "Doth Job fear God ''for nought''?" (cf. [[Gen 29:15]]; [[Isa 52:3]]).  Although the Book of Job is often taken as a theological treatise on the problem of evil, the explicit theme introduced here seems to be a question of dis/interested fear of God.  Presumably, Job would indeed be a praiseworthy individual if he feared God "for nought."  If Job (perhaps, like Adam, typological of all humankind) is to withstand accusations, it seems he must be able, in some sense, to ''prove'' (cf. [[Abr 3:25]]; see also [[Gen 22:1]] where the somewhat awkward word "tempt" is used in the KJV, instead of the more common translation "tested") that his fear of the LORD is not simply a result of the blessings Job has received, such as those articulated in verse 10.
 The question of fearing God "for nought" can be thought about in several ways.  One way to think of this is in a very strict sense: ''any'' reason to fear God to fear God would violate the implicit "for nought" requirement suggested here.  This, however, may be a reading that takes the text too strictly and/or systematically.  For another kind of reading, we might think more carefully about different ways an individual might fear God.  Janzen (see reference below) discusses this in terms of Bernard of Clairvaux's  stages of human growth.  According to Bernard, one begins first by loving oneself for one's own sake, then loving God for one's own sake, and then finally loving God for God's own sake.  This way of thinking about different motivations for loving someone casts the theological question of Job in a way that parallels many themes in other scripture, esp. the way love, grace, and hypocrisy are talked about in the New Testament.  For example, Jesus teaches that one should love not just one's friends, but one's enemies also ([[Matt 5:43]]-47)&mdash;loving one's enemies is, presumably, a more noble, pure, and disinterested kind of love.  However, to think about God as Job's enemy would seem to go too far.  The question being posed here in the Book of Job is not about God's love of Job; rather, it is about Job's love of God.  Again, for Job's piety to be properly ''proven'' (at least to Satan, but perhaps also to God, and/or the divine council, and/or to Job himself), it seems Job's prosperity must be taken away.