Talk:Rev 12:1-14:20

Of the kingdom versus the church

Does anyone have any thoughts on this subject? I suppose I am wrestling with this question because of the implications of this JST passage more than anything. If there is a strict division between the church and the kingdom here, how might it be read elsewhere, especially if the kingdom is a question of the endowment, etc. My concern arises from the fact that if the endowment is involved in one way or another, then the kings in question in the kingdom are men, whereas if the church and the kingdom are tied together more closely through the whole story, the king is obviously the King, the anointed Christ. D&C 65 seems to suggest that the kingdom of God on earth is ruled by mock kings almost, kings who sit on thrones in the meanwhile (just as Adam gives up his throne to Christ in Daniel 7?). I suppose, in short, there seems to me to be a clash between the kingdom of God as church and the kingdom of God as kingdom. I'm trying to work out my thoughts there. Any reactions? --Joe Spencer 14:01, 12 Oct 2006 (UTC)

One idea (better: related question) is that there is an allusion here to Adam and Eve being given dominion over the animals in Gen 1:26, and the creation of Man in the image of God. I'm not clear on how to interpret that passage, but I think it's crucial to understanding the relationship between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of heaven. Generally, to follow up on the exegesis you've written so far, I tend to think of the Kingdom of God as similar to the Church of the Firstborn in the D&C (not that I claim to understand the significance of those passages, I just think it's a related concept). If the temple is the passageway between heaven and earth, then it makes sense that the Kingdom of God on earth and the the Kingdom of Heaven (a la D&c 65) meet in the temple. But I think I'm missing the "mock king" idea you're getting at. To me, Adam is established as God's representative on earth, to rule in his absence on this temporal world that has fallen (and cannot endure the Father's presence? that is, only a mortal God—Christ—can the world endure, and even then it kills him...). I see this also related to the idea of the world achieving its celestial glory (wherever those passages are...). Perhaps the eschatological establishment of the Kingdom of God is a marriage of the Kingdom of God with the Kingdom of Heaven (or, continuing the metaphor here, a marriage of the children of the bride and bridegroom?), and in this way, through the progeny (I'm thinking here how important children are in the OT, esp. Ruth, and of course the significance of "be fruitful and multiply" in early Gen chapters...). Sorry all I have is reckless brainstorms for now. --RobertC 19:36, 12 Oct 2006 (UTC)