Site:SS lessons/NT lesson 36

This page allows you to see all the commentary pages together for this New Testament Gospel Doctrine lesson. Click on the heading to go to a specific page. Click the edit links below to edit text on any pages.

Rom 1:1-5

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapter 1a / Verses 1:1-17 Previous page: Romans                      Next page: Chapters 1b-4 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:1-7: Greeting. Most Roman letters began "So-and-so to so-and-so, greeting." Jewish letters began "So-and-so to so-and-so, peace be multiplied." Paul begins his letters with variations of these standard greetings, but he often expands those greetings. In this letter, for example, he tells us who he is in verse 1 and who the letter is addressed to in verse 7, with a five verse parenthesis between. Rom 1:1. Paul had two names, but it is almost certainly not true that he changed his name from "Saul" to "Paul" when he was converted. Notice that he is called "Saul" after his conversion (see Acts 13:1). Roman citizens (Paul was a Roman citizen) usually had three names, a personal name, a clan name, and a family name. Sometimes they also had a nickname. "Paulus" (Paul in English) was a common Roman family name. "Saul" was a relatively common Jewish personal name and could also be a nickname. So "Paul" and "Saul" are just two different ways of identifying the same person, much as we might refer to a person sometimes by his last name--"Smith"--and sometimes by his first name--"John." The Greek for "servant" is perhaps better translated "slave." There were few if any of what we would think of as servants in Roman or Hebrew culture of Paul's time. Servants were owned by someone and owed that person work, receiving no compensation for their work. Household slaves, however, were usually treated much like members of the family. Sometimes they were adopted (a fact that Paul uses to make his argument in chapter 8). "Called to be" is a misleading translation. "Called" would be more accurate. The word "apostle" literally means "one sent out," "a messenger." So Paul is "a called messenger" or "a called apostle." In other words, he is not self-appointed. "Separated" means much the same as our phrase "set apart." "Everyone knows" that the word "gospel" means "good news" or "pleasing message. Less known is that it was the common way of describing the announcement of a military victory or of an arriving king. In the Septuagint, the Greek word translates the Hebrew word, basar. We see that word in 1 Samuel 31:9, 1 Kings 1:42, and Jeremiah 20:15, among other places. In the King James translation it is translated "good tidings," "tidings," and "publish." Rom 1:2. The Greek word translated "promised" is etymologically related to the word translated "gospel" in verse 1. They share a root that means "to announce" (a root that is also the origin of our word "angel"). The first meaning of the Greek word "prophaetes," the origin of our word "prophet," is "one who declares openly, who speaks publicly." Initially it has nothing to do with one who tells the future. The prophet is the one who makes public what God has to say. This is the only place in the New Testament where the phrase translated "holy scriptures" can be found. The holy scriptures for Paul would have included what we call the Old Testament (the Law, the Writings, the Prophets). Since Paul refers to other books as well, such as the Wisdom of Solomon, we can assume that he considered those other books also to be scripture. Rom 1:3. By using the word "Lord," (meaning "Yahweh"), Paul explicitly identifies Jesus with Yahweh. Sometimes Paul uses "flesh" as a negative term (though he never uses it to mean simply "body"), but here he uses it positively. Modern editors believe that the phrase "Jesus Christ our Lord" belongs at the end of verse 4 rather than in verse 3. Rom 1:4. The Greek word translated "declared" means "to mark out" or "to set bounds." It is used in the New Testament to mean "to define, determine, or appoint." "Powerfully" is probably a better translation of the Greek than "with power." The Greek is ambiguous as to whether "Spirit of holiness" refers to the Holy Spirit or whether it means something more general, the spirit that we see in any holy person. Rom 1:3-4. If we accept the judgment that "Jesus Christ our Lord" belongs at the end of verse 4, these verses form a chiasmus: a. his Son, b. from the seed of David, c. according to the flesh, d. but who was declared/defined/appointed to be the Son of God in power c'. according to the spirit b'. from the resurrection of the dead, a'. namely Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 1:5. The word translated "grace" is a variation of a word meaning "gift" or "blessing." The word translated "faith" has several good translations, among them "belief" and "trust." "Fidelity" or "faithfulness" are also excellent translations. "Nations" here, though technically a correct literal translation, means "Gentiles." Rom 1:16-17: Paul's Thesis. These two verses are among the best known in Romans. They are often considered to be the thesis of Romans, the main point that gets developed throughout the book. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Romans                      Next page: Chapters 1b-4

Rom 1:6-10

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapter 1a / Verses 1:1-17 Previous page: Romans                      Next page: Chapters 1b-4 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:1-7: Greeting. Most Roman letters began "So-and-so to so-and-so, greeting." Jewish letters began "So-and-so to so-and-so, peace be multiplied." Paul begins his letters with variations of these standard greetings, but he often expands those greetings. In this letter, for example, he tells us who he is in verse 1 and who the letter is addressed to in verse 7, with a five verse parenthesis between. Rom 1:1. Paul had two names, but it is almost certainly not true that he changed his name from "Saul" to "Paul" when he was converted. Notice that he is called "Saul" after his conversion (see Acts 13:1). Roman citizens (Paul was a Roman citizen) usually had three names, a personal name, a clan name, and a family name. Sometimes they also had a nickname. "Paulus" (Paul in English) was a common Roman family name. "Saul" was a relatively common Jewish personal name and could also be a nickname. So "Paul" and "Saul" are just two different ways of identifying the same person, much as we might refer to a person sometimes by his last name--"Smith"--and sometimes by his first name--"John." The Greek for "servant" is perhaps better translated "slave." There were few if any of what we would think of as servants in Roman or Hebrew culture of Paul's time. Servants were owned by someone and owed that person work, receiving no compensation for their work. Household slaves, however, were usually treated much like members of the family. Sometimes they were adopted (a fact that Paul uses to make his argument in chapter 8). "Called to be" is a misleading translation. "Called" would be more accurate. The word "apostle" literally means "one sent out," "a messenger." So Paul is "a called messenger" or "a called apostle." In other words, he is not self-appointed. "Separated" means much the same as our phrase "set apart." "Everyone knows" that the word "gospel" means "good news" or "pleasing message. Less known is that it was the common way of describing the announcement of a military victory or of an arriving king. In the Septuagint, the Greek word translates the Hebrew word, basar. We see that word in 1 Samuel 31:9, 1 Kings 1:42, and Jeremiah 20:15, among other places. In the King James translation it is translated "good tidings," "tidings," and "publish." Rom 1:2. The Greek word translated "promised" is etymologically related to the word translated "gospel" in verse 1. They share a root that means "to announce" (a root that is also the origin of our word "angel"). The first meaning of the Greek word "prophaetes," the origin of our word "prophet," is "one who declares openly, who speaks publicly." Initially it has nothing to do with one who tells the future. The prophet is the one who makes public what God has to say. This is the only place in the New Testament where the phrase translated "holy scriptures" can be found. The holy scriptures for Paul would have included what we call the Old Testament (the Law, the Writings, the Prophets). Since Paul refers to other books as well, such as the Wisdom of Solomon, we can assume that he considered those other books also to be scripture. Rom 1:3. By using the word "Lord," (meaning "Yahweh"), Paul explicitly identifies Jesus with Yahweh. Sometimes Paul uses "flesh" as a negative term (though he never uses it to mean simply "body"), but here he uses it positively. Modern editors believe that the phrase "Jesus Christ our Lord" belongs at the end of verse 4 rather than in verse 3. Rom 1:4. The Greek word translated "declared" means "to mark out" or "to set bounds." It is used in the New Testament to mean "to define, determine, or appoint." "Powerfully" is probably a better translation of the Greek than "with power." The Greek is ambiguous as to whether "Spirit of holiness" refers to the Holy Spirit or whether it means something more general, the spirit that we see in any holy person. Rom 1:3-4. If we accept the judgment that "Jesus Christ our Lord" belongs at the end of verse 4, these verses form a chiasmus: a. his Son, b. from the seed of David, c. according to the flesh, d. but who was declared/defined/appointed to be the Son of God in power c'. according to the spirit b'. from the resurrection of the dead, a'. namely Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 1:5. The word translated "grace" is a variation of a word meaning "gift" or "blessing." The word translated "faith" has several good translations, among them "belief" and "trust." "Fidelity" or "faithfulness" are also excellent translations. "Nations" here, though technically a correct literal translation, means "Gentiles." Rom 1:16-17: Paul's Thesis. These two verses are among the best known in Romans. They are often considered to be the thesis of Romans, the main point that gets developed throughout the book. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Romans                      Next page: Chapters 1b-4

Rom 1:11-15

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapter 1a / Verses 1:1-17 Previous page: Romans                      Next page: Chapters 1b-4 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:1-7: Greeting. Most Roman letters began "So-and-so to so-and-so, greeting." Jewish letters began "So-and-so to so-and-so, peace be multiplied." Paul begins his letters with variations of these standard greetings, but he often expands those greetings. In this letter, for example, he tells us who he is in verse 1 and who the letter is addressed to in verse 7, with a five verse parenthesis between. Rom 1:1. Paul had two names, but it is almost certainly not true that he changed his name from "Saul" to "Paul" when he was converted. Notice that he is called "Saul" after his conversion (see Acts 13:1). Roman citizens (Paul was a Roman citizen) usually had three names, a personal name, a clan name, and a family name. Sometimes they also had a nickname. "Paulus" (Paul in English) was a common Roman family name. "Saul" was a relatively common Jewish personal name and could also be a nickname. So "Paul" and "Saul" are just two different ways of identifying the same person, much as we might refer to a person sometimes by his last name--"Smith"--and sometimes by his first name--"John." The Greek for "servant" is perhaps better translated "slave." There were few if any of what we would think of as servants in Roman or Hebrew culture of Paul's time. Servants were owned by someone and owed that person work, receiving no compensation for their work. Household slaves, however, were usually treated much like members of the family. Sometimes they were adopted (a fact that Paul uses to make his argument in chapter 8). "Called to be" is a misleading translation. "Called" would be more accurate. The word "apostle" literally means "one sent out," "a messenger." So Paul is "a called messenger" or "a called apostle." In other words, he is not self-appointed. "Separated" means much the same as our phrase "set apart." "Everyone knows" that the word "gospel" means "good news" or "pleasing message. Less known is that it was the common way of describing the announcement of a military victory or of an arriving king. In the Septuagint, the Greek word translates the Hebrew word, basar. We see that word in 1 Samuel 31:9, 1 Kings 1:42, and Jeremiah 20:15, among other places. In the King James translation it is translated "good tidings," "tidings," and "publish." Rom 1:2. The Greek word translated "promised" is etymologically related to the word translated "gospel" in verse 1. They share a root that means "to announce" (a root that is also the origin of our word "angel"). The first meaning of the Greek word "prophaetes," the origin of our word "prophet," is "one who declares openly, who speaks publicly." Initially it has nothing to do with one who tells the future. The prophet is the one who makes public what God has to say. This is the only place in the New Testament where the phrase translated "holy scriptures" can be found. The holy scriptures for Paul would have included what we call the Old Testament (the Law, the Writings, the Prophets). Since Paul refers to other books as well, such as the Wisdom of Solomon, we can assume that he considered those other books also to be scripture. Rom 1:3. By using the word "Lord," (meaning "Yahweh"), Paul explicitly identifies Jesus with Yahweh. Sometimes Paul uses "flesh" as a negative term (though he never uses it to mean simply "body"), but here he uses it positively. Modern editors believe that the phrase "Jesus Christ our Lord" belongs at the end of verse 4 rather than in verse 3. Rom 1:4. The Greek word translated "declared" means "to mark out" or "to set bounds." It is used in the New Testament to mean "to define, determine, or appoint." "Powerfully" is probably a better translation of the Greek than "with power." The Greek is ambiguous as to whether "Spirit of holiness" refers to the Holy Spirit or whether it means something more general, the spirit that we see in any holy person. Rom 1:3-4. If we accept the judgment that "Jesus Christ our Lord" belongs at the end of verse 4, these verses form a chiasmus: a. his Son, b. from the seed of David, c. according to the flesh, d. but who was declared/defined/appointed to be the Son of God in power c'. according to the spirit b'. from the resurrection of the dead, a'. namely Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 1:5. The word translated "grace" is a variation of a word meaning "gift" or "blessing." The word translated "faith" has several good translations, among them "belief" and "trust." "Fidelity" or "faithfulness" are also excellent translations. "Nations" here, though technically a correct literal translation, means "Gentiles." Rom 1:16-17: Paul's Thesis. These two verses are among the best known in Romans. They are often considered to be the thesis of Romans, the main point that gets developed throughout the book. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Romans                      Next page: Chapters 1b-4

Rom 1:16-20

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapter 1a / Verses 1:1-17 Previous page: Romans                      Next page: Chapters 1b-4 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:1-7: Greeting. Most Roman letters began "So-and-so to so-and-so, greeting." Jewish letters began "So-and-so to so-and-so, peace be multiplied." Paul begins his letters with variations of these standard greetings, but he often expands those greetings. In this letter, for example, he tells us who he is in verse 1 and who the letter is addressed to in verse 7, with a five verse parenthesis between. Rom 1:1. Paul had two names, but it is almost certainly not true that he changed his name from "Saul" to "Paul" when he was converted. Notice that he is called "Saul" after his conversion (see Acts 13:1). Roman citizens (Paul was a Roman citizen) usually had three names, a personal name, a clan name, and a family name. Sometimes they also had a nickname. "Paulus" (Paul in English) was a common Roman family name. "Saul" was a relatively common Jewish personal name and could also be a nickname. So "Paul" and "Saul" are just two different ways of identifying the same person, much as we might refer to a person sometimes by his last name--"Smith"--and sometimes by his first name--"John." The Greek for "servant" is perhaps better translated "slave." There were few if any of what we would think of as servants in Roman or Hebrew culture of Paul's time. Servants were owned by someone and owed that person work, receiving no compensation for their work. Household slaves, however, were usually treated much like members of the family. Sometimes they were adopted (a fact that Paul uses to make his argument in chapter 8). "Called to be" is a misleading translation. "Called" would be more accurate. The word "apostle" literally means "one sent out," "a messenger." So Paul is "a called messenger" or "a called apostle." In other words, he is not self-appointed. "Separated" means much the same as our phrase "set apart." "Everyone knows" that the word "gospel" means "good news" or "pleasing message. Less known is that it was the common way of describing the announcement of a military victory or of an arriving king. In the Septuagint, the Greek word translates the Hebrew word, basar. We see that word in 1 Samuel 31:9, 1 Kings 1:42, and Jeremiah 20:15, among other places. In the King James translation it is translated "good tidings," "tidings," and "publish." Rom 1:2. The Greek word translated "promised" is etymologically related to the word translated "gospel" in verse 1. They share a root that means "to announce" (a root that is also the origin of our word "angel"). The first meaning of the Greek word "prophaetes," the origin of our word "prophet," is "one who declares openly, who speaks publicly." Initially it has nothing to do with one who tells the future. The prophet is the one who makes public what God has to say. This is the only place in the New Testament where the phrase translated "holy scriptures" can be found. The holy scriptures for Paul would have included what we call the Old Testament (the Law, the Writings, the Prophets). Since Paul refers to other books as well, such as the Wisdom of Solomon, we can assume that he considered those other books also to be scripture. Rom 1:3. By using the word "Lord," (meaning "Yahweh"), Paul explicitly identifies Jesus with Yahweh. Sometimes Paul uses "flesh" as a negative term (though he never uses it to mean simply "body"), but here he uses it positively. Modern editors believe that the phrase "Jesus Christ our Lord" belongs at the end of verse 4 rather than in verse 3. Rom 1:4. The Greek word translated "declared" means "to mark out" or "to set bounds." It is used in the New Testament to mean "to define, determine, or appoint." "Powerfully" is probably a better translation of the Greek than "with power." The Greek is ambiguous as to whether "Spirit of holiness" refers to the Holy Spirit or whether it means something more general, the spirit that we see in any holy person. Rom 1:3-4. If we accept the judgment that "Jesus Christ our Lord" belongs at the end of verse 4, these verses form a chiasmus: a. his Son, b. from the seed of David, c. according to the flesh, d. but who was declared/defined/appointed to be the Son of God in power c'. according to the spirit b'. from the resurrection of the dead, a'. namely Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 1:5. The word translated "grace" is a variation of a word meaning "gift" or "blessing." The word translated "faith" has several good translations, among them "belief" and "trust." "Fidelity" or "faithfulness" are also excellent translations. "Nations" here, though technically a correct literal translation, means "Gentiles." Rom 1:16-17: Paul's Thesis. These two verses are among the best known in Romans. They are often considered to be the thesis of Romans, the main point that gets developed throughout the book. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Romans                      Next page: Chapters 1b-4

Rom 1:21-25

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 1b-4 / Verses 1:18-4:25 Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:20. We live in a day when many deny the existence of God even after witnessing the intricate glories of nature. Paul reminds these people that they deny God at their own peril. God designed the universe as a manifestation of his power and glory. Yet many turn a blind eye to that manifestation, instead insisting that all things in the universe came about through random chance events. As the Book of Mormon says "when they are learned they think they are wise." Verse 22, "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." Because they have learned a few things about the laws and materials of nature, they claim to far more than they actually know, insisting in a Godless universe controlled by chaos and chance. Yet their belief in a Godless universe is even more absurd than the many religions they claim to repudiate. However, for an honest viewer, God's hand is self-evident. The universe is "clearly seen" to be the work of a Creator. Rom 4:21. Was Abraham's faith a perfect assurance of God's promise, or was it a trust in God's ultimate power and ability to do it, whether or not it actually turned out that way? Paul seems to indicate that it was in God's power and ability to work miracles in general, but not necessarily a "prophetic" trust in an exact future outcome. God was "able" to perform. That was the truth Abraham trusted in. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 2:28. This same thing could be said about many of the labels we use in our lives. Are we outward Christians or inward Christians? re we outward husbands, or inward husbands. We may flatter ourselves that because we have done works that make us a good Christian, or a good husband or wife, or elder. However, our outward manifestations ultimately mean nothing. It is our hearts that truly matter. I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:21: They. Who is "they" Paul is referring to in this verse? Is Paul giving a sort of history of the world in general in verses 1:21-32? Is "they" a particular group of people, perhaps the Jews? Rom 2:7-10. Is it good to seek for glory and honor? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 3:28. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of faith, works and grace. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8

Rom 1:26-32

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 1b-4 / Verses 1:18-4:25 Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:20. We live in a day when many deny the existence of God even after witnessing the intricate glories of nature. Paul reminds these people that they deny God at their own peril. God designed the universe as a manifestation of his power and glory. Yet many turn a blind eye to that manifestation, instead insisting that all things in the universe came about through random chance events. As the Book of Mormon says "when they are learned they think they are wise." Verse 22, "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." Because they have learned a few things about the laws and materials of nature, they claim to far more than they actually know, insisting in a Godless universe controlled by chaos and chance. Yet their belief in a Godless universe is even more absurd than the many religions they claim to repudiate. However, for an honest viewer, God's hand is self-evident. The universe is "clearly seen" to be the work of a Creator. Rom 4:21. Was Abraham's faith a perfect assurance of God's promise, or was it a trust in God's ultimate power and ability to do it, whether or not it actually turned out that way? Paul seems to indicate that it was in God's power and ability to work miracles in general, but not necessarily a "prophetic" trust in an exact future outcome. God was "able" to perform. That was the truth Abraham trusted in. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 2:28. This same thing could be said about many of the labels we use in our lives. Are we outward Christians or inward Christians? re we outward husbands, or inward husbands. We may flatter ourselves that because we have done works that make us a good Christian, or a good husband or wife, or elder. However, our outward manifestations ultimately mean nothing. It is our hearts that truly matter. I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:21: They. Who is "they" Paul is referring to in this verse? Is Paul giving a sort of history of the world in general in verses 1:21-32? Is "they" a particular group of people, perhaps the Jews? Rom 2:7-10. Is it good to seek for glory and honor? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 3:28. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of faith, works and grace. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8

Rom 2:1-5

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 1b-4 / Verses 1:18-4:25 Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:20. We live in a day when many deny the existence of God even after witnessing the intricate glories of nature. Paul reminds these people that they deny God at their own peril. God designed the universe as a manifestation of his power and glory. Yet many turn a blind eye to that manifestation, instead insisting that all things in the universe came about through random chance events. As the Book of Mormon says "when they are learned they think they are wise." Verse 22, "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." Because they have learned a few things about the laws and materials of nature, they claim to far more than they actually know, insisting in a Godless universe controlled by chaos and chance. Yet their belief in a Godless universe is even more absurd than the many religions they claim to repudiate. However, for an honest viewer, God's hand is self-evident. The universe is "clearly seen" to be the work of a Creator. Rom 4:21. Was Abraham's faith a perfect assurance of God's promise, or was it a trust in God's ultimate power and ability to do it, whether or not it actually turned out that way? Paul seems to indicate that it was in God's power and ability to work miracles in general, but not necessarily a "prophetic" trust in an exact future outcome. God was "able" to perform. That was the truth Abraham trusted in. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 2:28. This same thing could be said about many of the labels we use in our lives. Are we outward Christians or inward Christians? re we outward husbands, or inward husbands. We may flatter ourselves that because we have done works that make us a good Christian, or a good husband or wife, or elder. However, our outward manifestations ultimately mean nothing. It is our hearts that truly matter. I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:21: They. Who is "they" Paul is referring to in this verse? Is Paul giving a sort of history of the world in general in verses 1:21-32? Is "they" a particular group of people, perhaps the Jews? Rom 2:7-10. Is it good to seek for glory and honor? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 3:28. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of faith, works and grace. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8

Rom 2:6-10

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 1b-4 / Verses 1:18-4:25 Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:20. We live in a day when many deny the existence of God even after witnessing the intricate glories of nature. Paul reminds these people that they deny God at their own peril. God designed the universe as a manifestation of his power and glory. Yet many turn a blind eye to that manifestation, instead insisting that all things in the universe came about through random chance events. As the Book of Mormon says "when they are learned they think they are wise." Verse 22, "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." Because they have learned a few things about the laws and materials of nature, they claim to far more than they actually know, insisting in a Godless universe controlled by chaos and chance. Yet their belief in a Godless universe is even more absurd than the many religions they claim to repudiate. However, for an honest viewer, God's hand is self-evident. The universe is "clearly seen" to be the work of a Creator. Rom 4:21. Was Abraham's faith a perfect assurance of God's promise, or was it a trust in God's ultimate power and ability to do it, whether or not it actually turned out that way? Paul seems to indicate that it was in God's power and ability to work miracles in general, but not necessarily a "prophetic" trust in an exact future outcome. God was "able" to perform. That was the truth Abraham trusted in. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 2:28. This same thing could be said about many of the labels we use in our lives. Are we outward Christians or inward Christians? re we outward husbands, or inward husbands. We may flatter ourselves that because we have done works that make us a good Christian, or a good husband or wife, or elder. However, our outward manifestations ultimately mean nothing. It is our hearts that truly matter. I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:21: They. Who is "they" Paul is referring to in this verse? Is Paul giving a sort of history of the world in general in verses 1:21-32? Is "they" a particular group of people, perhaps the Jews? Rom 2:7-10. Is it good to seek for glory and honor? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 3:28. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of faith, works and grace. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8

Rom 2:11-15

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 1b-4 / Verses 1:18-4:25 Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:20. We live in a day when many deny the existence of God even after witnessing the intricate glories of nature. Paul reminds these people that they deny God at their own peril. God designed the universe as a manifestation of his power and glory. Yet many turn a blind eye to that manifestation, instead insisting that all things in the universe came about through random chance events. As the Book of Mormon says "when they are learned they think they are wise." Verse 22, "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." Because they have learned a few things about the laws and materials of nature, they claim to far more than they actually know, insisting in a Godless universe controlled by chaos and chance. Yet their belief in a Godless universe is even more absurd than the many religions they claim to repudiate. However, for an honest viewer, God's hand is self-evident. The universe is "clearly seen" to be the work of a Creator. Rom 4:21. Was Abraham's faith a perfect assurance of God's promise, or was it a trust in God's ultimate power and ability to do it, whether or not it actually turned out that way? Paul seems to indicate that it was in God's power and ability to work miracles in general, but not necessarily a "prophetic" trust in an exact future outcome. God was "able" to perform. That was the truth Abraham trusted in. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 2:28. This same thing could be said about many of the labels we use in our lives. Are we outward Christians or inward Christians? re we outward husbands, or inward husbands. We may flatter ourselves that because we have done works that make us a good Christian, or a good husband or wife, or elder. However, our outward manifestations ultimately mean nothing. It is our hearts that truly matter. I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:21: They. Who is "they" Paul is referring to in this verse? Is Paul giving a sort of history of the world in general in verses 1:21-32? Is "they" a particular group of people, perhaps the Jews? Rom 2:7-10. Is it good to seek for glory and honor? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 3:28. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of faith, works and grace. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8

Rom 2:16-20

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 1b-4 / Verses 1:18-4:25 Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:20. We live in a day when many deny the existence of God even after witnessing the intricate glories of nature. Paul reminds these people that they deny God at their own peril. God designed the universe as a manifestation of his power and glory. Yet many turn a blind eye to that manifestation, instead insisting that all things in the universe came about through random chance events. As the Book of Mormon says "when they are learned they think they are wise." Verse 22, "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." Because they have learned a few things about the laws and materials of nature, they claim to far more than they actually know, insisting in a Godless universe controlled by chaos and chance. Yet their belief in a Godless universe is even more absurd than the many religions they claim to repudiate. However, for an honest viewer, God's hand is self-evident. The universe is "clearly seen" to be the work of a Creator. Rom 4:21. Was Abraham's faith a perfect assurance of God's promise, or was it a trust in God's ultimate power and ability to do it, whether or not it actually turned out that way? Paul seems to indicate that it was in God's power and ability to work miracles in general, but not necessarily a "prophetic" trust in an exact future outcome. God was "able" to perform. That was the truth Abraham trusted in. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 2:28. This same thing could be said about many of the labels we use in our lives. Are we outward Christians or inward Christians? re we outward husbands, or inward husbands. We may flatter ourselves that because we have done works that make us a good Christian, or a good husband or wife, or elder. However, our outward manifestations ultimately mean nothing. It is our hearts that truly matter. I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:21: They. Who is "they" Paul is referring to in this verse? Is Paul giving a sort of history of the world in general in verses 1:21-32? Is "they" a particular group of people, perhaps the Jews? Rom 2:7-10. Is it good to seek for glory and honor? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 3:28. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of faith, works and grace. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8

Rom 2:21-25

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 1b-4 / Verses 1:18-4:25 Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:20. We live in a day when many deny the existence of God even after witnessing the intricate glories of nature. Paul reminds these people that they deny God at their own peril. God designed the universe as a manifestation of his power and glory. Yet many turn a blind eye to that manifestation, instead insisting that all things in the universe came about through random chance events. As the Book of Mormon says "when they are learned they think they are wise." Verse 22, "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." Because they have learned a few things about the laws and materials of nature, they claim to far more than they actually know, insisting in a Godless universe controlled by chaos and chance. Yet their belief in a Godless universe is even more absurd than the many religions they claim to repudiate. However, for an honest viewer, God's hand is self-evident. The universe is "clearly seen" to be the work of a Creator. Rom 4:21. Was Abraham's faith a perfect assurance of God's promise, or was it a trust in God's ultimate power and ability to do it, whether or not it actually turned out that way? Paul seems to indicate that it was in God's power and ability to work miracles in general, but not necessarily a "prophetic" trust in an exact future outcome. God was "able" to perform. That was the truth Abraham trusted in. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 2:28. This same thing could be said about many of the labels we use in our lives. Are we outward Christians or inward Christians? re we outward husbands, or inward husbands. We may flatter ourselves that because we have done works that make us a good Christian, or a good husband or wife, or elder. However, our outward manifestations ultimately mean nothing. It is our hearts that truly matter. I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:21: They. Who is "they" Paul is referring to in this verse? Is Paul giving a sort of history of the world in general in verses 1:21-32? Is "they" a particular group of people, perhaps the Jews? Rom 2:7-10. Is it good to seek for glory and honor? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 3:28. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of faith, works and grace. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8

Rom 2:26-29

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 1b-4 / Verses 1:18-4:25 Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:20. We live in a day when many deny the existence of God even after witnessing the intricate glories of nature. Paul reminds these people that they deny God at their own peril. God designed the universe as a manifestation of his power and glory. Yet many turn a blind eye to that manifestation, instead insisting that all things in the universe came about through random chance events. As the Book of Mormon says "when they are learned they think they are wise." Verse 22, "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." Because they have learned a few things about the laws and materials of nature, they claim to far more than they actually know, insisting in a Godless universe controlled by chaos and chance. Yet their belief in a Godless universe is even more absurd than the many religions they claim to repudiate. However, for an honest viewer, God's hand is self-evident. The universe is "clearly seen" to be the work of a Creator. Rom 4:21. Was Abraham's faith a perfect assurance of God's promise, or was it a trust in God's ultimate power and ability to do it, whether or not it actually turned out that way? Paul seems to indicate that it was in God's power and ability to work miracles in general, but not necessarily a "prophetic" trust in an exact future outcome. God was "able" to perform. That was the truth Abraham trusted in. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 2:28. This same thing could be said about many of the labels we use in our lives. Are we outward Christians or inward Christians? re we outward husbands, or inward husbands. We may flatter ourselves that because we have done works that make us a good Christian, or a good husband or wife, or elder. However, our outward manifestations ultimately mean nothing. It is our hearts that truly matter. I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:21: They. Who is "they" Paul is referring to in this verse? Is Paul giving a sort of history of the world in general in verses 1:21-32? Is "they" a particular group of people, perhaps the Jews? Rom 2:7-10. Is it good to seek for glory and honor? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 3:28. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of faith, works and grace. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8

Rom 3:1-5

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 1b-4 / Verses 1:18-4:25 Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:20. We live in a day when many deny the existence of God even after witnessing the intricate glories of nature. Paul reminds these people that they deny God at their own peril. God designed the universe as a manifestation of his power and glory. Yet many turn a blind eye to that manifestation, instead insisting that all things in the universe came about through random chance events. As the Book of Mormon says "when they are learned they think they are wise." Verse 22, "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." Because they have learned a few things about the laws and materials of nature, they claim to far more than they actually know, insisting in a Godless universe controlled by chaos and chance. Yet their belief in a Godless universe is even more absurd than the many religions they claim to repudiate. However, for an honest viewer, God's hand is self-evident. The universe is "clearly seen" to be the work of a Creator. Rom 4:21. Was Abraham's faith a perfect assurance of God's promise, or was it a trust in God's ultimate power and ability to do it, whether or not it actually turned out that way? Paul seems to indicate that it was in God's power and ability to work miracles in general, but not necessarily a "prophetic" trust in an exact future outcome. God was "able" to perform. That was the truth Abraham trusted in. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 2:28. This same thing could be said about many of the labels we use in our lives. Are we outward Christians or inward Christians? re we outward husbands, or inward husbands. We may flatter ourselves that because we have done works that make us a good Christian, or a good husband or wife, or elder. However, our outward manifestations ultimately mean nothing. It is our hearts that truly matter. I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:21: They. Who is "they" Paul is referring to in this verse? Is Paul giving a sort of history of the world in general in verses 1:21-32? Is "they" a particular group of people, perhaps the Jews? Rom 2:7-10. Is it good to seek for glory and honor? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 3:28. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of faith, works and grace. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8

Rom 3:6-10

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 1b-4 / Verses 1:18-4:25 Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:20. We live in a day when many deny the existence of God even after witnessing the intricate glories of nature. Paul reminds these people that they deny God at their own peril. God designed the universe as a manifestation of his power and glory. Yet many turn a blind eye to that manifestation, instead insisting that all things in the universe came about through random chance events. As the Book of Mormon says "when they are learned they think they are wise." Verse 22, "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." Because they have learned a few things about the laws and materials of nature, they claim to far more than they actually know, insisting in a Godless universe controlled by chaos and chance. Yet their belief in a Godless universe is even more absurd than the many religions they claim to repudiate. However, for an honest viewer, God's hand is self-evident. The universe is "clearly seen" to be the work of a Creator. Rom 4:21. Was Abraham's faith a perfect assurance of God's promise, or was it a trust in God's ultimate power and ability to do it, whether or not it actually turned out that way? Paul seems to indicate that it was in God's power and ability to work miracles in general, but not necessarily a "prophetic" trust in an exact future outcome. God was "able" to perform. That was the truth Abraham trusted in. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 2:28. This same thing could be said about many of the labels we use in our lives. Are we outward Christians or inward Christians? re we outward husbands, or inward husbands. We may flatter ourselves that because we have done works that make us a good Christian, or a good husband or wife, or elder. However, our outward manifestations ultimately mean nothing. It is our hearts that truly matter. I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:21: They. Who is "they" Paul is referring to in this verse? Is Paul giving a sort of history of the world in general in verses 1:21-32? Is "they" a particular group of people, perhaps the Jews? Rom 2:7-10. Is it good to seek for glory and honor? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 3:28. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of faith, works and grace. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8

Rom 3:11-15

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 1b-4 / Verses 1:18-4:25 Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:20. We live in a day when many deny the existence of God even after witnessing the intricate glories of nature. Paul reminds these people that they deny God at their own peril. God designed the universe as a manifestation of his power and glory. Yet many turn a blind eye to that manifestation, instead insisting that all things in the universe came about through random chance events. As the Book of Mormon says "when they are learned they think they are wise." Verse 22, "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." Because they have learned a few things about the laws and materials of nature, they claim to far more than they actually know, insisting in a Godless universe controlled by chaos and chance. Yet their belief in a Godless universe is even more absurd than the many religions they claim to repudiate. However, for an honest viewer, God's hand is self-evident. The universe is "clearly seen" to be the work of a Creator. Rom 4:21. Was Abraham's faith a perfect assurance of God's promise, or was it a trust in God's ultimate power and ability to do it, whether or not it actually turned out that way? Paul seems to indicate that it was in God's power and ability to work miracles in general, but not necessarily a "prophetic" trust in an exact future outcome. God was "able" to perform. That was the truth Abraham trusted in. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 2:28. This same thing could be said about many of the labels we use in our lives. Are we outward Christians or inward Christians? re we outward husbands, or inward husbands. We may flatter ourselves that because we have done works that make us a good Christian, or a good husband or wife, or elder. However, our outward manifestations ultimately mean nothing. It is our hearts that truly matter. I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:21: They. Who is "they" Paul is referring to in this verse? Is Paul giving a sort of history of the world in general in verses 1:21-32? Is "they" a particular group of people, perhaps the Jews? Rom 2:7-10. Is it good to seek for glory and honor? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 3:28. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of faith, works and grace. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8

Rom 3:16-20

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 1b-4 / Verses 1:18-4:25 Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:20. We live in a day when many deny the existence of God even after witnessing the intricate glories of nature. Paul reminds these people that they deny God at their own peril. God designed the universe as a manifestation of his power and glory. Yet many turn a blind eye to that manifestation, instead insisting that all things in the universe came about through random chance events. As the Book of Mormon says "when they are learned they think they are wise." Verse 22, "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." Because they have learned a few things about the laws and materials of nature, they claim to far more than they actually know, insisting in a Godless universe controlled by chaos and chance. Yet their belief in a Godless universe is even more absurd than the many religions they claim to repudiate. However, for an honest viewer, God's hand is self-evident. The universe is "clearly seen" to be the work of a Creator. Rom 4:21. Was Abraham's faith a perfect assurance of God's promise, or was it a trust in God's ultimate power and ability to do it, whether or not it actually turned out that way? Paul seems to indicate that it was in God's power and ability to work miracles in general, but not necessarily a "prophetic" trust in an exact future outcome. God was "able" to perform. That was the truth Abraham trusted in. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 2:28. This same thing could be said about many of the labels we use in our lives. Are we outward Christians or inward Christians? re we outward husbands, or inward husbands. We may flatter ourselves that because we have done works that make us a good Christian, or a good husband or wife, or elder. However, our outward manifestations ultimately mean nothing. It is our hearts that truly matter. I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:21: They. Who is "they" Paul is referring to in this verse? Is Paul giving a sort of history of the world in general in verses 1:21-32? Is "they" a particular group of people, perhaps the Jews? Rom 2:7-10. Is it good to seek for glory and honor? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 3:28. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of faith, works and grace. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8

Rom 3:21-25

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 1b-4 / Verses 1:18-4:25 Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:20. We live in a day when many deny the existence of God even after witnessing the intricate glories of nature. Paul reminds these people that they deny God at their own peril. God designed the universe as a manifestation of his power and glory. Yet many turn a blind eye to that manifestation, instead insisting that all things in the universe came about through random chance events. As the Book of Mormon says "when they are learned they think they are wise." Verse 22, "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." Because they have learned a few things about the laws and materials of nature, they claim to far more than they actually know, insisting in a Godless universe controlled by chaos and chance. Yet their belief in a Godless universe is even more absurd than the many religions they claim to repudiate. However, for an honest viewer, God's hand is self-evident. The universe is "clearly seen" to be the work of a Creator. Rom 4:21. Was Abraham's faith a perfect assurance of God's promise, or was it a trust in God's ultimate power and ability to do it, whether or not it actually turned out that way? Paul seems to indicate that it was in God's power and ability to work miracles in general, but not necessarily a "prophetic" trust in an exact future outcome. God was "able" to perform. That was the truth Abraham trusted in. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 2:28. This same thing could be said about many of the labels we use in our lives. Are we outward Christians or inward Christians? re we outward husbands, or inward husbands. We may flatter ourselves that because we have done works that make us a good Christian, or a good husband or wife, or elder. However, our outward manifestations ultimately mean nothing. It is our hearts that truly matter. I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:21: They. Who is "they" Paul is referring to in this verse? Is Paul giving a sort of history of the world in general in verses 1:21-32? Is "they" a particular group of people, perhaps the Jews? Rom 2:7-10. Is it good to seek for glory and honor? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 3:28. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of faith, works and grace. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8

Rom 3:26-31

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 1b-4 / Verses 1:18-4:25 Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:20. We live in a day when many deny the existence of God even after witnessing the intricate glories of nature. Paul reminds these people that they deny God at their own peril. God designed the universe as a manifestation of his power and glory. Yet many turn a blind eye to that manifestation, instead insisting that all things in the universe came about through random chance events. As the Book of Mormon says "when they are learned they think they are wise." Verse 22, "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." Because they have learned a few things about the laws and materials of nature, they claim to far more than they actually know, insisting in a Godless universe controlled by chaos and chance. Yet their belief in a Godless universe is even more absurd than the many religions they claim to repudiate. However, for an honest viewer, God's hand is self-evident. The universe is "clearly seen" to be the work of a Creator. Rom 4:21. Was Abraham's faith a perfect assurance of God's promise, or was it a trust in God's ultimate power and ability to do it, whether or not it actually turned out that way? Paul seems to indicate that it was in God's power and ability to work miracles in general, but not necessarily a "prophetic" trust in an exact future outcome. God was "able" to perform. That was the truth Abraham trusted in. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 2:28. This same thing could be said about many of the labels we use in our lives. Are we outward Christians or inward Christians? re we outward husbands, or inward husbands. We may flatter ourselves that because we have done works that make us a good Christian, or a good husband or wife, or elder. However, our outward manifestations ultimately mean nothing. It is our hearts that truly matter. I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:21: They. Who is "they" Paul is referring to in this verse? Is Paul giving a sort of history of the world in general in verses 1:21-32? Is "they" a particular group of people, perhaps the Jews? Rom 2:7-10. Is it good to seek for glory and honor? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 3:28. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of faith, works and grace. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8

Rom 4:1-5

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 1b-4 / Verses 1:18-4:25 Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:20. We live in a day when many deny the existence of God even after witnessing the intricate glories of nature. Paul reminds these people that they deny God at their own peril. God designed the universe as a manifestation of his power and glory. Yet many turn a blind eye to that manifestation, instead insisting that all things in the universe came about through random chance events. As the Book of Mormon says "when they are learned they think they are wise." Verse 22, "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." Because they have learned a few things about the laws and materials of nature, they claim to far more than they actually know, insisting in a Godless universe controlled by chaos and chance. Yet their belief in a Godless universe is even more absurd than the many religions they claim to repudiate. However, for an honest viewer, God's hand is self-evident. The universe is "clearly seen" to be the work of a Creator. Rom 4:21. Was Abraham's faith a perfect assurance of God's promise, or was it a trust in God's ultimate power and ability to do it, whether or not it actually turned out that way? Paul seems to indicate that it was in God's power and ability to work miracles in general, but not necessarily a "prophetic" trust in an exact future outcome. God was "able" to perform. That was the truth Abraham trusted in. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 2:28. This same thing could be said about many of the labels we use in our lives. Are we outward Christians or inward Christians? re we outward husbands, or inward husbands. We may flatter ourselves that because we have done works that make us a good Christian, or a good husband or wife, or elder. However, our outward manifestations ultimately mean nothing. It is our hearts that truly matter. I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:21: They. Who is "they" Paul is referring to in this verse? Is Paul giving a sort of history of the world in general in verses 1:21-32? Is "they" a particular group of people, perhaps the Jews? Rom 2:7-10. Is it good to seek for glory and honor? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 3:28. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of faith, works and grace. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8

Rom 4:6-10

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 1b-4 / Verses 1:18-4:25 Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:20. We live in a day when many deny the existence of God even after witnessing the intricate glories of nature. Paul reminds these people that they deny God at their own peril. God designed the universe as a manifestation of his power and glory. Yet many turn a blind eye to that manifestation, instead insisting that all things in the universe came about through random chance events. As the Book of Mormon says "when they are learned they think they are wise." Verse 22, "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." Because they have learned a few things about the laws and materials of nature, they claim to far more than they actually know, insisting in a Godless universe controlled by chaos and chance. Yet their belief in a Godless universe is even more absurd than the many religions they claim to repudiate. However, for an honest viewer, God's hand is self-evident. The universe is "clearly seen" to be the work of a Creator. Rom 4:21. Was Abraham's faith a perfect assurance of God's promise, or was it a trust in God's ultimate power and ability to do it, whether or not it actually turned out that way? Paul seems to indicate that it was in God's power and ability to work miracles in general, but not necessarily a "prophetic" trust in an exact future outcome. God was "able" to perform. That was the truth Abraham trusted in. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 2:28. This same thing could be said about many of the labels we use in our lives. Are we outward Christians or inward Christians? re we outward husbands, or inward husbands. We may flatter ourselves that because we have done works that make us a good Christian, or a good husband or wife, or elder. However, our outward manifestations ultimately mean nothing. It is our hearts that truly matter. I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:21: They. Who is "they" Paul is referring to in this verse? Is Paul giving a sort of history of the world in general in verses 1:21-32? Is "they" a particular group of people, perhaps the Jews? Rom 2:7-10. Is it good to seek for glory and honor? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 3:28. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of faith, works and grace. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8

Rom 4:11-15

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 1b-4 / Verses 1:18-4:25 Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:20. We live in a day when many deny the existence of God even after witnessing the intricate glories of nature. Paul reminds these people that they deny God at their own peril. God designed the universe as a manifestation of his power and glory. Yet many turn a blind eye to that manifestation, instead insisting that all things in the universe came about through random chance events. As the Book of Mormon says "when they are learned they think they are wise." Verse 22, "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." Because they have learned a few things about the laws and materials of nature, they claim to far more than they actually know, insisting in a Godless universe controlled by chaos and chance. Yet their belief in a Godless universe is even more absurd than the many religions they claim to repudiate. However, for an honest viewer, God's hand is self-evident. The universe is "clearly seen" to be the work of a Creator. Rom 4:21. Was Abraham's faith a perfect assurance of God's promise, or was it a trust in God's ultimate power and ability to do it, whether or not it actually turned out that way? Paul seems to indicate that it was in God's power and ability to work miracles in general, but not necessarily a "prophetic" trust in an exact future outcome. God was "able" to perform. That was the truth Abraham trusted in. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 2:28. This same thing could be said about many of the labels we use in our lives. Are we outward Christians or inward Christians? re we outward husbands, or inward husbands. We may flatter ourselves that because we have done works that make us a good Christian, or a good husband or wife, or elder. However, our outward manifestations ultimately mean nothing. It is our hearts that truly matter. I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:21: They. Who is "they" Paul is referring to in this verse? Is Paul giving a sort of history of the world in general in verses 1:21-32? Is "they" a particular group of people, perhaps the Jews? Rom 2:7-10. Is it good to seek for glory and honor? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 3:28. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of faith, works and grace. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8

Rom 4:16-20

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 1b-4 / Verses 1:18-4:25 Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:20. We live in a day when many deny the existence of God even after witnessing the intricate glories of nature. Paul reminds these people that they deny God at their own peril. God designed the universe as a manifestation of his power and glory. Yet many turn a blind eye to that manifestation, instead insisting that all things in the universe came about through random chance events. As the Book of Mormon says "when they are learned they think they are wise." Verse 22, "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." Because they have learned a few things about the laws and materials of nature, they claim to far more than they actually know, insisting in a Godless universe controlled by chaos and chance. Yet their belief in a Godless universe is even more absurd than the many religions they claim to repudiate. However, for an honest viewer, God's hand is self-evident. The universe is "clearly seen" to be the work of a Creator. Rom 4:21. Was Abraham's faith a perfect assurance of God's promise, or was it a trust in God's ultimate power and ability to do it, whether or not it actually turned out that way? Paul seems to indicate that it was in God's power and ability to work miracles in general, but not necessarily a "prophetic" trust in an exact future outcome. God was "able" to perform. That was the truth Abraham trusted in. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 2:28. This same thing could be said about many of the labels we use in our lives. Are we outward Christians or inward Christians? re we outward husbands, or inward husbands. We may flatter ourselves that because we have done works that make us a good Christian, or a good husband or wife, or elder. However, our outward manifestations ultimately mean nothing. It is our hearts that truly matter. I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:21: They. Who is "they" Paul is referring to in this verse? Is Paul giving a sort of history of the world in general in verses 1:21-32? Is "they" a particular group of people, perhaps the Jews? Rom 2:7-10. Is it good to seek for glory and honor? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 3:28. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of faith, works and grace. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8

Rom 4:21-25

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 1b-4 / Verses 1:18-4:25 Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:20. We live in a day when many deny the existence of God even after witnessing the intricate glories of nature. Paul reminds these people that they deny God at their own peril. God designed the universe as a manifestation of his power and glory. Yet many turn a blind eye to that manifestation, instead insisting that all things in the universe came about through random chance events. As the Book of Mormon says "when they are learned they think they are wise." Verse 22, "professing themselves to be wise, they became fools." Because they have learned a few things about the laws and materials of nature, they claim to far more than they actually know, insisting in a Godless universe controlled by chaos and chance. Yet their belief in a Godless universe is even more absurd than the many religions they claim to repudiate. However, for an honest viewer, God's hand is self-evident. The universe is "clearly seen" to be the work of a Creator. Rom 4:21. Was Abraham's faith a perfect assurance of God's promise, or was it a trust in God's ultimate power and ability to do it, whether or not it actually turned out that way? Paul seems to indicate that it was in God's power and ability to work miracles in general, but not necessarily a "prophetic" trust in an exact future outcome. God was "able" to perform. That was the truth Abraham trusted in. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 2:28. This same thing could be said about many of the labels we use in our lives. Are we outward Christians or inward Christians? re we outward husbands, or inward husbands. We may flatter ourselves that because we have done works that make us a good Christian, or a good husband or wife, or elder. However, our outward manifestations ultimately mean nothing. It is our hearts that truly matter. I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 1:21: They. Who is "they" Paul is referring to in this verse? Is Paul giving a sort of history of the world in general in verses 1:21-32? Is "they" a particular group of people, perhaps the Jews? Rom 2:7-10. Is it good to seek for glory and honor? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 3:28. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of faith, works and grace. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapter 1a                      Next page: Chapters 5-8

Rom 5:1-5

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 5-8 Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 5:2. With the free gift of God's grace,we are invited to rejoice in our salvation. Yet do we need to do anything more? Yes: to glory in tribulation which leads to patience and hope. This could be seen as Paul's version of the "first principles and ordinances of the gospel." First, faith, second suffering through tribulation, third patience or endurance, and fourth hope. Through the process, we finally arrive at the Holy Ghost, just as we do in Joseph Smith's first principles and ordinances. Rom 5:5: Shed abroad. The Greek word ekcheo ("shed abroad") is also used in the sense of "pouring" in the LXX in Num 19:17 and Ex 30:18 in a purification rite. This is also the word used in Matt 26:28 to describe Christ's blood being shed for the sins of others, the same phrasing we find in our sacrament prayers. See also Matt 23:35; Acts 22:20; Rev 16:6. Rom 5:8: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Here Paul notes that Christ suffers for sinners, not saints, or the righteous. "None are rightious" he had said previously. In a sense, Christ is most often with us when we are sinners, suffering and silently enduring with us. Although as Saints, we may feel his presence, yet he is also very present in the life of the sinner, gently trying to mould the life in a way that might promote some kind of healing. But even if not, he is always there, suffering all things with the sinner. Rom 5:13: Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Some believe that the heathen will go to hell. However, Paul clearly states that sin is never imputed unto those without the law. Some might argue, but the Fall of Adam makes all men sinful. Not according to this scripture. Without the law, there is no sin, no condemnation, and thus, no hell. Only mortal death is imputed from the Fall. But spiritual death comes only from our own sins, in the presence of a known law. Paul says even of himself, in Rom 7:9, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Paul was scott free, sinless, alive, and uncondemned before he knew the law. Then when he heard the law, he died. Rom 6:22: Everlasting. The same Greek word (aionios) that is translated as "everlasting" in verse 22 is translated as "eternal" in verse 23. Rom 6:21-23. In these verses Paul wraps up a lengthy argument in which he encourages followers of Christ to become obedient to righteousness. Apparently, there were some Christians who felt that because of grace that it didn't matter what they did with their lives. But Paul unequivocally rejects this idea in verse 15. In the end, he says in verses 21-23, we have two choices: death (verse 21 and 23) that comes from doing iniquity, or holiness (sanctification and purity) with the result of eternal life (verses 22 and 23). Rom 7:1. Compare the usage of this word in Rom 5:21; Rom 6:9; Rom 6:14. Note esp. Rom 6:14 since it seems this chapter is will be taking up the question of what it means to be "not under the law, but under grace." Rom 7:2: Bound by the law. Paul seems to be referring to the law described in Deut 24:1. Rom 7:4: Wherefore ... ye also. The phrasing here draws a comparison between Jewish law as it pertains to a woman whose husband as died. However, this should not be read strictly as an analogy. That is, there are themes from this example that Paul will employ in discussing law—namely, the ideas of law, death, and union (old and new)—however, trying to make one-to-one identification mappings between, say, the first husband and the law, seem to be strained, going beyond Paul's purpose. Rom 7:5: Which were by the law. Although this is a fairly literal translation of the Greek, most modern translations amend this so it makes more sense. Several translations (e.g. NRSV, NASB, NET, NIV, NKJV) add the word "arouse" to make more sense of the phrase. For example, the NRSV for this verse is: "While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death" (emphasis added). In this sense, perhaps the "sinful passions" (NRSV) or "motions of sins" (KJV) are "by the law" because the law, in prohibiting a certain act, makes that very act more attractive. That is, in the very act of prohibiting an act, attention is drawn to that act. However, it should be noted, that although several modern translations seem to take this approach, this is only one of several possible interpretive directions to take. James D. G. Dunn, for example, in his Word Biblical Commentary volume on Romans 1-8, translates this verse as: "For when we were in the flesh the sinful passions which operate through the law were effective in what we are and do so as to bear fruit for death." Here, the phrase "the sinful passions which operate through the law" seems truer to the ambiguity in the Greek in that it allows for this "operat[ion]" of sin through (or by) the law to function in many possible ways, either by arousing interest in sin, or by some other way (Dunn seems to take this in terms of the law acting through us, tying in, perhaps, to the notion of serving the law of sin rather than the law of God; cf. Rom 7:6; Rom 7:25). I would also cite 2 Nephi 2:13(11-13) which suggests a different reading of Romans 7:5 than that suggested by the other authors cited. I further think the larger context also agreeable to this meaning. That is, that sin, being an act of breaking the law, can only exist in a context where there is law. Therefore, if there was no law, then there would be no sin and it can justly be said that sin takes its existence from the law and is therefore enabled to work in us because of the law. So, I would then read Romans 7:5 as being an extension of the act played out in the garden of eden. Man became mortal because of transgression and that transgression still works in us unto death, but not just this "original" sin, but also the suggestion seems to remain that other sins that we commit ourselves contribute to this decay. A question in my mind is that if the simple transgression of Adam and Eve still works within us to make us mortal, to produce a temporal decay, then can the sins of our other progenitors have also contributed to this decay? Not having read the authors cited, perhaps the do take up some of these ideas. Any thoughts? I was wondering the same thing regarding 2 Ne 2. As my jumbled notes on this probably make obvious, I'm not very clear on what "typical" Bible scholars think about this passage (and whole chapter), let alone how a Mormon reading might differ. My plan is to try and study what Bible scholars think about this chapter, then think how 2 Ne 2 might influence how we read this chapter, and finally take up the intriguing JST on this passage. Actually, I think the subsequent verses will help us think about what Paul is up to here, but I haven't really made sense of them yet for myself yet. Onward ho.... --RobertC 19:00, 24 August 2007 (CEST) Rom 7:6. It seems that Paul's purpose in employing this marriage analogy (vv. 1-6) is to argue that the law's grasp does not extend beyond death. In light of the "baptized into [Christ's] death" (Rom 6:3) theme in chapter 6, the idea seems to be that in baptism, the Christian is "delivered from the law" ("discharged from the law" in the NRSV; in Greek, the same verb is used here, katargeo, as in verse 2 to describe the way in which a woman whose husband dies is "loosed from the law"). Rom 7:9. Before we hear the gospel, before we have the law, we are alive, sinless. When the law comes, we die. Here we have a possible explanation for why "gentiles" sometimes seem to weather the consequences of sin better than saints. Pornography is the perfect example. Statistics seem to indicate that rates of addiction are higher in Mormon areas. Undoubtedly, these addictions take a much higher toll than they do for "gentiles." The reason is simple. Where there is a law, there is spiritual death, and all the consequences of that death. Although I believe that even for "gentiles" there are consequences to certain actions that we as Mormons call "sins," these consequences do not include spiritual death on the same level we as LDS members experience. Rom 7:15-25: JST. Verses 15-25 take on a clearer and less awkward meaning in JST (passages not noted in LDS Edition. See The New Testament with the Joseph Smith Translation by Steven and Julie Hite or the edition by Wayment. Rom 7:20. Is Paul advocating personal responsibility away from us by noting our helplessness in the face of the power of sin upon us? In a way, yes, but in a way, no. We don't have to feel so guilty if our flesh is full of lusts, for that is it's natural state. "The natural man is an enemy to God" as King Benjamin said. Paul says nothing good comes from the flesh, which may be only his personal opinion based on his own demons, (i.e. his thorn in the flesh). But it is true that the flesh is an unruly member, no matter how deep our spiritual commitment to the commandments. It is only through Christ that we can hope to achieve freedom through forgiveness. Rom 8:13. This is similar to Christ's idea: "He that findeth his life shall lose it, and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Matthew 10:39 Rom 8:33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?. A beautiful scripture on the pointlessness of criticism and passing judgement on those who have been called and chosen. Sure they may not always be perfect, but when they have already been saved by Christ who made intercession for them, who are we to ever pass judgement upon them? Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 7:18. In the flesh dwelleth no good thing. Paul's attitudes about the flesh are unique among biblical and latter day authors. In our day, the "flesh" is not seen as so perverse. The "flesh" nature of deity is continually asserted, as is the divine nature of the physical intimacy within marriage. Having a "body" is seen as one of the greatest things a spirit can ever attain. So why is the flesh so continually vilified by Paul? Rom 8:20. Who his the "him" in the phrase "him who hath subjected the same"? God? Adam? Someone else? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 8:11-15. For a poetic exploration of a pagan's conversion, see User: Joe Spencer/grace. Rom 8:16-17. Keith R. Edwards, "That They Might Know Thee," Ensign, Nov 2006, pp. 99–101. Elder Edwards said: "Paul wrote that our suffering may give us an opportunity to know the Savior better... Now, lest anyone go looking for hardship and suffering, that is not what is taught. Rather, it is the attitude with which we approach our hardships and trials that allows us to know the Savior better." Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11

Rom 5:6-10

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 5-8 Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 5:2. With the free gift of God's grace,we are invited to rejoice in our salvation. Yet do we need to do anything more? Yes: to glory in tribulation which leads to patience and hope. This could be seen as Paul's version of the "first principles and ordinances of the gospel." First, faith, second suffering through tribulation, third patience or endurance, and fourth hope. Through the process, we finally arrive at the Holy Ghost, just as we do in Joseph Smith's first principles and ordinances. Rom 5:5: Shed abroad. The Greek word ekcheo ("shed abroad") is also used in the sense of "pouring" in the LXX in Num 19:17 and Ex 30:18 in a purification rite. This is also the word used in Matt 26:28 to describe Christ's blood being shed for the sins of others, the same phrasing we find in our sacrament prayers. See also Matt 23:35; Acts 22:20; Rev 16:6. Rom 5:8: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Here Paul notes that Christ suffers for sinners, not saints, or the righteous. "None are rightious" he had said previously. In a sense, Christ is most often with us when we are sinners, suffering and silently enduring with us. Although as Saints, we may feel his presence, yet he is also very present in the life of the sinner, gently trying to mould the life in a way that might promote some kind of healing. But even if not, he is always there, suffering all things with the sinner. Rom 5:13: Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Some believe that the heathen will go to hell. However, Paul clearly states that sin is never imputed unto those without the law. Some might argue, but the Fall of Adam makes all men sinful. Not according to this scripture. Without the law, there is no sin, no condemnation, and thus, no hell. Only mortal death is imputed from the Fall. But spiritual death comes only from our own sins, in the presence of a known law. Paul says even of himself, in Rom 7:9, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Paul was scott free, sinless, alive, and uncondemned before he knew the law. Then when he heard the law, he died. Rom 6:22: Everlasting. The same Greek word (aionios) that is translated as "everlasting" in verse 22 is translated as "eternal" in verse 23. Rom 6:21-23. In these verses Paul wraps up a lengthy argument in which he encourages followers of Christ to become obedient to righteousness. Apparently, there were some Christians who felt that because of grace that it didn't matter what they did with their lives. But Paul unequivocally rejects this idea in verse 15. In the end, he says in verses 21-23, we have two choices: death (verse 21 and 23) that comes from doing iniquity, or holiness (sanctification and purity) with the result of eternal life (verses 22 and 23). Rom 7:1. Compare the usage of this word in Rom 5:21; Rom 6:9; Rom 6:14. Note esp. Rom 6:14 since it seems this chapter is will be taking up the question of what it means to be "not under the law, but under grace." Rom 7:2: Bound by the law. Paul seems to be referring to the law described in Deut 24:1. Rom 7:4: Wherefore ... ye also. The phrasing here draws a comparison between Jewish law as it pertains to a woman whose husband as died. However, this should not be read strictly as an analogy. That is, there are themes from this example that Paul will employ in discussing law—namely, the ideas of law, death, and union (old and new)—however, trying to make one-to-one identification mappings between, say, the first husband and the law, seem to be strained, going beyond Paul's purpose. Rom 7:5: Which were by the law. Although this is a fairly literal translation of the Greek, most modern translations amend this so it makes more sense. Several translations (e.g. NRSV, NASB, NET, NIV, NKJV) add the word "arouse" to make more sense of the phrase. For example, the NRSV for this verse is: "While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death" (emphasis added). In this sense, perhaps the "sinful passions" (NRSV) or "motions of sins" (KJV) are "by the law" because the law, in prohibiting a certain act, makes that very act more attractive. That is, in the very act of prohibiting an act, attention is drawn to that act. However, it should be noted, that although several modern translations seem to take this approach, this is only one of several possible interpretive directions to take. James D. G. Dunn, for example, in his Word Biblical Commentary volume on Romans 1-8, translates this verse as: "For when we were in the flesh the sinful passions which operate through the law were effective in what we are and do so as to bear fruit for death." Here, the phrase "the sinful passions which operate through the law" seems truer to the ambiguity in the Greek in that it allows for this "operat[ion]" of sin through (or by) the law to function in many possible ways, either by arousing interest in sin, or by some other way (Dunn seems to take this in terms of the law acting through us, tying in, perhaps, to the notion of serving the law of sin rather than the law of God; cf. Rom 7:6; Rom 7:25). I would also cite 2 Nephi 2:13(11-13) which suggests a different reading of Romans 7:5 than that suggested by the other authors cited. I further think the larger context also agreeable to this meaning. That is, that sin, being an act of breaking the law, can only exist in a context where there is law. Therefore, if there was no law, then there would be no sin and it can justly be said that sin takes its existence from the law and is therefore enabled to work in us because of the law. So, I would then read Romans 7:5 as being an extension of the act played out in the garden of eden. Man became mortal because of transgression and that transgression still works in us unto death, but not just this "original" sin, but also the suggestion seems to remain that other sins that we commit ourselves contribute to this decay. A question in my mind is that if the simple transgression of Adam and Eve still works within us to make us mortal, to produce a temporal decay, then can the sins of our other progenitors have also contributed to this decay? Not having read the authors cited, perhaps the do take up some of these ideas. Any thoughts? I was wondering the same thing regarding 2 Ne 2. As my jumbled notes on this probably make obvious, I'm not very clear on what "typical" Bible scholars think about this passage (and whole chapter), let alone how a Mormon reading might differ. My plan is to try and study what Bible scholars think about this chapter, then think how 2 Ne 2 might influence how we read this chapter, and finally take up the intriguing JST on this passage. Actually, I think the subsequent verses will help us think about what Paul is up to here, but I haven't really made sense of them yet for myself yet. Onward ho.... --RobertC 19:00, 24 August 2007 (CEST) Rom 7:6. It seems that Paul's purpose in employing this marriage analogy (vv. 1-6) is to argue that the law's grasp does not extend beyond death. In light of the "baptized into [Christ's] death" (Rom 6:3) theme in chapter 6, the idea seems to be that in baptism, the Christian is "delivered from the law" ("discharged from the law" in the NRSV; in Greek, the same verb is used here, katargeo, as in verse 2 to describe the way in which a woman whose husband dies is "loosed from the law"). Rom 7:9. Before we hear the gospel, before we have the law, we are alive, sinless. When the law comes, we die. Here we have a possible explanation for why "gentiles" sometimes seem to weather the consequences of sin better than saints. Pornography is the perfect example. Statistics seem to indicate that rates of addiction are higher in Mormon areas. Undoubtedly, these addictions take a much higher toll than they do for "gentiles." The reason is simple. Where there is a law, there is spiritual death, and all the consequences of that death. Although I believe that even for "gentiles" there are consequences to certain actions that we as Mormons call "sins," these consequences do not include spiritual death on the same level we as LDS members experience. Rom 7:15-25: JST. Verses 15-25 take on a clearer and less awkward meaning in JST (passages not noted in LDS Edition. See The New Testament with the Joseph Smith Translation by Steven and Julie Hite or the edition by Wayment. Rom 7:20. Is Paul advocating personal responsibility away from us by noting our helplessness in the face of the power of sin upon us? In a way, yes, but in a way, no. We don't have to feel so guilty if our flesh is full of lusts, for that is it's natural state. "The natural man is an enemy to God" as King Benjamin said. Paul says nothing good comes from the flesh, which may be only his personal opinion based on his own demons, (i.e. his thorn in the flesh). But it is true that the flesh is an unruly member, no matter how deep our spiritual commitment to the commandments. It is only through Christ that we can hope to achieve freedom through forgiveness. Rom 8:13. This is similar to Christ's idea: "He that findeth his life shall lose it, and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Matthew 10:39 Rom 8:33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?. A beautiful scripture on the pointlessness of criticism and passing judgement on those who have been called and chosen. Sure they may not always be perfect, but when they have already been saved by Christ who made intercession for them, who are we to ever pass judgement upon them? Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 7:18. In the flesh dwelleth no good thing. Paul's attitudes about the flesh are unique among biblical and latter day authors. In our day, the "flesh" is not seen as so perverse. The "flesh" nature of deity is continually asserted, as is the divine nature of the physical intimacy within marriage. Having a "body" is seen as one of the greatest things a spirit can ever attain. So why is the flesh so continually vilified by Paul? Rom 8:20. Who his the "him" in the phrase "him who hath subjected the same"? God? Adam? Someone else? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 8:11-15. For a poetic exploration of a pagan's conversion, see User: Joe Spencer/grace. Rom 8:16-17. Keith R. Edwards, "That They Might Know Thee," Ensign, Nov 2006, pp. 99–101. Elder Edwards said: "Paul wrote that our suffering may give us an opportunity to know the Savior better... Now, lest anyone go looking for hardship and suffering, that is not what is taught. Rather, it is the attitude with which we approach our hardships and trials that allows us to know the Savior better." Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11

Rom 5:11-15

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 5-8 Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 5:2. With the free gift of God's grace,we are invited to rejoice in our salvation. Yet do we need to do anything more? Yes: to glory in tribulation which leads to patience and hope. This could be seen as Paul's version of the "first principles and ordinances of the gospel." First, faith, second suffering through tribulation, third patience or endurance, and fourth hope. Through the process, we finally arrive at the Holy Ghost, just as we do in Joseph Smith's first principles and ordinances. Rom 5:5: Shed abroad. The Greek word ekcheo ("shed abroad") is also used in the sense of "pouring" in the LXX in Num 19:17 and Ex 30:18 in a purification rite. This is also the word used in Matt 26:28 to describe Christ's blood being shed for the sins of others, the same phrasing we find in our sacrament prayers. See also Matt 23:35; Acts 22:20; Rev 16:6. Rom 5:8: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Here Paul notes that Christ suffers for sinners, not saints, or the righteous. "None are rightious" he had said previously. In a sense, Christ is most often with us when we are sinners, suffering and silently enduring with us. Although as Saints, we may feel his presence, yet he is also very present in the life of the sinner, gently trying to mould the life in a way that might promote some kind of healing. But even if not, he is always there, suffering all things with the sinner. Rom 5:13: Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Some believe that the heathen will go to hell. However, Paul clearly states that sin is never imputed unto those without the law. Some might argue, but the Fall of Adam makes all men sinful. Not according to this scripture. Without the law, there is no sin, no condemnation, and thus, no hell. Only mortal death is imputed from the Fall. But spiritual death comes only from our own sins, in the presence of a known law. Paul says even of himself, in Rom 7:9, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Paul was scott free, sinless, alive, and uncondemned before he knew the law. Then when he heard the law, he died. Rom 6:22: Everlasting. The same Greek word (aionios) that is translated as "everlasting" in verse 22 is translated as "eternal" in verse 23. Rom 6:21-23. In these verses Paul wraps up a lengthy argument in which he encourages followers of Christ to become obedient to righteousness. Apparently, there were some Christians who felt that because of grace that it didn't matter what they did with their lives. But Paul unequivocally rejects this idea in verse 15. In the end, he says in verses 21-23, we have two choices: death (verse 21 and 23) that comes from doing iniquity, or holiness (sanctification and purity) with the result of eternal life (verses 22 and 23). Rom 7:1. Compare the usage of this word in Rom 5:21; Rom 6:9; Rom 6:14. Note esp. Rom 6:14 since it seems this chapter is will be taking up the question of what it means to be "not under the law, but under grace." Rom 7:2: Bound by the law. Paul seems to be referring to the law described in Deut 24:1. Rom 7:4: Wherefore ... ye also. The phrasing here draws a comparison between Jewish law as it pertains to a woman whose husband as died. However, this should not be read strictly as an analogy. That is, there are themes from this example that Paul will employ in discussing law—namely, the ideas of law, death, and union (old and new)—however, trying to make one-to-one identification mappings between, say, the first husband and the law, seem to be strained, going beyond Paul's purpose. Rom 7:5: Which were by the law. Although this is a fairly literal translation of the Greek, most modern translations amend this so it makes more sense. Several translations (e.g. NRSV, NASB, NET, NIV, NKJV) add the word "arouse" to make more sense of the phrase. For example, the NRSV for this verse is: "While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death" (emphasis added). In this sense, perhaps the "sinful passions" (NRSV) or "motions of sins" (KJV) are "by the law" because the law, in prohibiting a certain act, makes that very act more attractive. That is, in the very act of prohibiting an act, attention is drawn to that act. However, it should be noted, that although several modern translations seem to take this approach, this is only one of several possible interpretive directions to take. James D. G. Dunn, for example, in his Word Biblical Commentary volume on Romans 1-8, translates this verse as: "For when we were in the flesh the sinful passions which operate through the law were effective in what we are and do so as to bear fruit for death." Here, the phrase "the sinful passions which operate through the law" seems truer to the ambiguity in the Greek in that it allows for this "operat[ion]" of sin through (or by) the law to function in many possible ways, either by arousing interest in sin, or by some other way (Dunn seems to take this in terms of the law acting through us, tying in, perhaps, to the notion of serving the law of sin rather than the law of God; cf. Rom 7:6; Rom 7:25). I would also cite 2 Nephi 2:13(11-13) which suggests a different reading of Romans 7:5 than that suggested by the other authors cited. I further think the larger context also agreeable to this meaning. That is, that sin, being an act of breaking the law, can only exist in a context where there is law. Therefore, if there was no law, then there would be no sin and it can justly be said that sin takes its existence from the law and is therefore enabled to work in us because of the law. So, I would then read Romans 7:5 as being an extension of the act played out in the garden of eden. Man became mortal because of transgression and that transgression still works in us unto death, but not just this "original" sin, but also the suggestion seems to remain that other sins that we commit ourselves contribute to this decay. A question in my mind is that if the simple transgression of Adam and Eve still works within us to make us mortal, to produce a temporal decay, then can the sins of our other progenitors have also contributed to this decay? Not having read the authors cited, perhaps the do take up some of these ideas. Any thoughts? I was wondering the same thing regarding 2 Ne 2. As my jumbled notes on this probably make obvious, I'm not very clear on what "typical" Bible scholars think about this passage (and whole chapter), let alone how a Mormon reading might differ. My plan is to try and study what Bible scholars think about this chapter, then think how 2 Ne 2 might influence how we read this chapter, and finally take up the intriguing JST on this passage. Actually, I think the subsequent verses will help us think about what Paul is up to here, but I haven't really made sense of them yet for myself yet. Onward ho.... --RobertC 19:00, 24 August 2007 (CEST) Rom 7:6. It seems that Paul's purpose in employing this marriage analogy (vv. 1-6) is to argue that the law's grasp does not extend beyond death. In light of the "baptized into [Christ's] death" (Rom 6:3) theme in chapter 6, the idea seems to be that in baptism, the Christian is "delivered from the law" ("discharged from the law" in the NRSV; in Greek, the same verb is used here, katargeo, as in verse 2 to describe the way in which a woman whose husband dies is "loosed from the law"). Rom 7:9. Before we hear the gospel, before we have the law, we are alive, sinless. When the law comes, we die. Here we have a possible explanation for why "gentiles" sometimes seem to weather the consequences of sin better than saints. Pornography is the perfect example. Statistics seem to indicate that rates of addiction are higher in Mormon areas. Undoubtedly, these addictions take a much higher toll than they do for "gentiles." The reason is simple. Where there is a law, there is spiritual death, and all the consequences of that death. Although I believe that even for "gentiles" there are consequences to certain actions that we as Mormons call "sins," these consequences do not include spiritual death on the same level we as LDS members experience. Rom 7:15-25: JST. Verses 15-25 take on a clearer and less awkward meaning in JST (passages not noted in LDS Edition. See The New Testament with the Joseph Smith Translation by Steven and Julie Hite or the edition by Wayment. Rom 7:20. Is Paul advocating personal responsibility away from us by noting our helplessness in the face of the power of sin upon us? In a way, yes, but in a way, no. We don't have to feel so guilty if our flesh is full of lusts, for that is it's natural state. "The natural man is an enemy to God" as King Benjamin said. Paul says nothing good comes from the flesh, which may be only his personal opinion based on his own demons, (i.e. his thorn in the flesh). But it is true that the flesh is an unruly member, no matter how deep our spiritual commitment to the commandments. It is only through Christ that we can hope to achieve freedom through forgiveness. Rom 8:13. This is similar to Christ's idea: "He that findeth his life shall lose it, and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Matthew 10:39 Rom 8:33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?. A beautiful scripture on the pointlessness of criticism and passing judgement on those who have been called and chosen. Sure they may not always be perfect, but when they have already been saved by Christ who made intercession for them, who are we to ever pass judgement upon them? Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 7:18. In the flesh dwelleth no good thing. Paul's attitudes about the flesh are unique among biblical and latter day authors. In our day, the "flesh" is not seen as so perverse. The "flesh" nature of deity is continually asserted, as is the divine nature of the physical intimacy within marriage. Having a "body" is seen as one of the greatest things a spirit can ever attain. So why is the flesh so continually vilified by Paul? Rom 8:20. Who his the "him" in the phrase "him who hath subjected the same"? God? Adam? Someone else? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 8:11-15. For a poetic exploration of a pagan's conversion, see User: Joe Spencer/grace. Rom 8:16-17. Keith R. Edwards, "That They Might Know Thee," Ensign, Nov 2006, pp. 99–101. Elder Edwards said: "Paul wrote that our suffering may give us an opportunity to know the Savior better... Now, lest anyone go looking for hardship and suffering, that is not what is taught. Rather, it is the attitude with which we approach our hardships and trials that allows us to know the Savior better." Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11

Rom 5:16-21

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 5-8 Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 5:2. With the free gift of God's grace,we are invited to rejoice in our salvation. Yet do we need to do anything more? Yes: to glory in tribulation which leads to patience and hope. This could be seen as Paul's version of the "first principles and ordinances of the gospel." First, faith, second suffering through tribulation, third patience or endurance, and fourth hope. Through the process, we finally arrive at the Holy Ghost, just as we do in Joseph Smith's first principles and ordinances. Rom 5:5: Shed abroad. The Greek word ekcheo ("shed abroad") is also used in the sense of "pouring" in the LXX in Num 19:17 and Ex 30:18 in a purification rite. This is also the word used in Matt 26:28 to describe Christ's blood being shed for the sins of others, the same phrasing we find in our sacrament prayers. See also Matt 23:35; Acts 22:20; Rev 16:6. Rom 5:8: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Here Paul notes that Christ suffers for sinners, not saints, or the righteous. "None are rightious" he had said previously. In a sense, Christ is most often with us when we are sinners, suffering and silently enduring with us. Although as Saints, we may feel his presence, yet he is also very present in the life of the sinner, gently trying to mould the life in a way that might promote some kind of healing. But even if not, he is always there, suffering all things with the sinner. Rom 5:13: Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Some believe that the heathen will go to hell. However, Paul clearly states that sin is never imputed unto those without the law. Some might argue, but the Fall of Adam makes all men sinful. Not according to this scripture. Without the law, there is no sin, no condemnation, and thus, no hell. Only mortal death is imputed from the Fall. But spiritual death comes only from our own sins, in the presence of a known law. Paul says even of himself, in Rom 7:9, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Paul was scott free, sinless, alive, and uncondemned before he knew the law. Then when he heard the law, he died. Rom 6:22: Everlasting. The same Greek word (aionios) that is translated as "everlasting" in verse 22 is translated as "eternal" in verse 23. Rom 6:21-23. In these verses Paul wraps up a lengthy argument in which he encourages followers of Christ to become obedient to righteousness. Apparently, there were some Christians who felt that because of grace that it didn't matter what they did with their lives. But Paul unequivocally rejects this idea in verse 15. In the end, he says in verses 21-23, we have two choices: death (verse 21 and 23) that comes from doing iniquity, or holiness (sanctification and purity) with the result of eternal life (verses 22 and 23). Rom 7:1. Compare the usage of this word in Rom 5:21; Rom 6:9; Rom 6:14. Note esp. Rom 6:14 since it seems this chapter is will be taking up the question of what it means to be "not under the law, but under grace." Rom 7:2: Bound by the law. Paul seems to be referring to the law described in Deut 24:1. Rom 7:4: Wherefore ... ye also. The phrasing here draws a comparison between Jewish law as it pertains to a woman whose husband as died. However, this should not be read strictly as an analogy. That is, there are themes from this example that Paul will employ in discussing law—namely, the ideas of law, death, and union (old and new)—however, trying to make one-to-one identification mappings between, say, the first husband and the law, seem to be strained, going beyond Paul's purpose. Rom 7:5: Which were by the law. Although this is a fairly literal translation of the Greek, most modern translations amend this so it makes more sense. Several translations (e.g. NRSV, NASB, NET, NIV, NKJV) add the word "arouse" to make more sense of the phrase. For example, the NRSV for this verse is: "While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death" (emphasis added). In this sense, perhaps the "sinful passions" (NRSV) or "motions of sins" (KJV) are "by the law" because the law, in prohibiting a certain act, makes that very act more attractive. That is, in the very act of prohibiting an act, attention is drawn to that act. However, it should be noted, that although several modern translations seem to take this approach, this is only one of several possible interpretive directions to take. James D. G. Dunn, for example, in his Word Biblical Commentary volume on Romans 1-8, translates this verse as: "For when we were in the flesh the sinful passions which operate through the law were effective in what we are and do so as to bear fruit for death." Here, the phrase "the sinful passions which operate through the law" seems truer to the ambiguity in the Greek in that it allows for this "operat[ion]" of sin through (or by) the law to function in many possible ways, either by arousing interest in sin, or by some other way (Dunn seems to take this in terms of the law acting through us, tying in, perhaps, to the notion of serving the law of sin rather than the law of God; cf. Rom 7:6; Rom 7:25). I would also cite 2 Nephi 2:13(11-13) which suggests a different reading of Romans 7:5 than that suggested by the other authors cited. I further think the larger context also agreeable to this meaning. That is, that sin, being an act of breaking the law, can only exist in a context where there is law. Therefore, if there was no law, then there would be no sin and it can justly be said that sin takes its existence from the law and is therefore enabled to work in us because of the law. So, I would then read Romans 7:5 as being an extension of the act played out in the garden of eden. Man became mortal because of transgression and that transgression still works in us unto death, but not just this "original" sin, but also the suggestion seems to remain that other sins that we commit ourselves contribute to this decay. A question in my mind is that if the simple transgression of Adam and Eve still works within us to make us mortal, to produce a temporal decay, then can the sins of our other progenitors have also contributed to this decay? Not having read the authors cited, perhaps the do take up some of these ideas. Any thoughts? I was wondering the same thing regarding 2 Ne 2. As my jumbled notes on this probably make obvious, I'm not very clear on what "typical" Bible scholars think about this passage (and whole chapter), let alone how a Mormon reading might differ. My plan is to try and study what Bible scholars think about this chapter, then think how 2 Ne 2 might influence how we read this chapter, and finally take up the intriguing JST on this passage. Actually, I think the subsequent verses will help us think about what Paul is up to here, but I haven't really made sense of them yet for myself yet. Onward ho.... --RobertC 19:00, 24 August 2007 (CEST) Rom 7:6. It seems that Paul's purpose in employing this marriage analogy (vv. 1-6) is to argue that the law's grasp does not extend beyond death. In light of the "baptized into [Christ's] death" (Rom 6:3) theme in chapter 6, the idea seems to be that in baptism, the Christian is "delivered from the law" ("discharged from the law" in the NRSV; in Greek, the same verb is used here, katargeo, as in verse 2 to describe the way in which a woman whose husband dies is "loosed from the law"). Rom 7:9. Before we hear the gospel, before we have the law, we are alive, sinless. When the law comes, we die. Here we have a possible explanation for why "gentiles" sometimes seem to weather the consequences of sin better than saints. Pornography is the perfect example. Statistics seem to indicate that rates of addiction are higher in Mormon areas. Undoubtedly, these addictions take a much higher toll than they do for "gentiles." The reason is simple. Where there is a law, there is spiritual death, and all the consequences of that death. Although I believe that even for "gentiles" there are consequences to certain actions that we as Mormons call "sins," these consequences do not include spiritual death on the same level we as LDS members experience. Rom 7:15-25: JST. Verses 15-25 take on a clearer and less awkward meaning in JST (passages not noted in LDS Edition. See The New Testament with the Joseph Smith Translation by Steven and Julie Hite or the edition by Wayment. Rom 7:20. Is Paul advocating personal responsibility away from us by noting our helplessness in the face of the power of sin upon us? In a way, yes, but in a way, no. We don't have to feel so guilty if our flesh is full of lusts, for that is it's natural state. "The natural man is an enemy to God" as King Benjamin said. Paul says nothing good comes from the flesh, which may be only his personal opinion based on his own demons, (i.e. his thorn in the flesh). But it is true that the flesh is an unruly member, no matter how deep our spiritual commitment to the commandments. It is only through Christ that we can hope to achieve freedom through forgiveness. Rom 8:13. This is similar to Christ's idea: "He that findeth his life shall lose it, and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Matthew 10:39 Rom 8:33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?. A beautiful scripture on the pointlessness of criticism and passing judgement on those who have been called and chosen. Sure they may not always be perfect, but when they have already been saved by Christ who made intercession for them, who are we to ever pass judgement upon them? Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 7:18. In the flesh dwelleth no good thing. Paul's attitudes about the flesh are unique among biblical and latter day authors. In our day, the "flesh" is not seen as so perverse. The "flesh" nature of deity is continually asserted, as is the divine nature of the physical intimacy within marriage. Having a "body" is seen as one of the greatest things a spirit can ever attain. So why is the flesh so continually vilified by Paul? Rom 8:20. Who his the "him" in the phrase "him who hath subjected the same"? God? Adam? Someone else? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 8:11-15. For a poetic exploration of a pagan's conversion, see User: Joe Spencer/grace. Rom 8:16-17. Keith R. Edwards, "That They Might Know Thee," Ensign, Nov 2006, pp. 99–101. Elder Edwards said: "Paul wrote that our suffering may give us an opportunity to know the Savior better... Now, lest anyone go looking for hardship and suffering, that is not what is taught. Rather, it is the attitude with which we approach our hardships and trials that allows us to know the Savior better." Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11

Rom 6:1-5

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 5-8 Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 5:2. With the free gift of God's grace,we are invited to rejoice in our salvation. Yet do we need to do anything more? Yes: to glory in tribulation which leads to patience and hope. This could be seen as Paul's version of the "first principles and ordinances of the gospel." First, faith, second suffering through tribulation, third patience or endurance, and fourth hope. Through the process, we finally arrive at the Holy Ghost, just as we do in Joseph Smith's first principles and ordinances. Rom 5:5: Shed abroad. The Greek word ekcheo ("shed abroad") is also used in the sense of "pouring" in the LXX in Num 19:17 and Ex 30:18 in a purification rite. This is also the word used in Matt 26:28 to describe Christ's blood being shed for the sins of others, the same phrasing we find in our sacrament prayers. See also Matt 23:35; Acts 22:20; Rev 16:6. Rom 5:8: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Here Paul notes that Christ suffers for sinners, not saints, or the righteous. "None are rightious" he had said previously. In a sense, Christ is most often with us when we are sinners, suffering and silently enduring with us. Although as Saints, we may feel his presence, yet he is also very present in the life of the sinner, gently trying to mould the life in a way that might promote some kind of healing. But even if not, he is always there, suffering all things with the sinner. Rom 5:13: Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Some believe that the heathen will go to hell. However, Paul clearly states that sin is never imputed unto those without the law. Some might argue, but the Fall of Adam makes all men sinful. Not according to this scripture. Without the law, there is no sin, no condemnation, and thus, no hell. Only mortal death is imputed from the Fall. But spiritual death comes only from our own sins, in the presence of a known law. Paul says even of himself, in Rom 7:9, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Paul was scott free, sinless, alive, and uncondemned before he knew the law. Then when he heard the law, he died. Rom 6:22: Everlasting. The same Greek word (aionios) that is translated as "everlasting" in verse 22 is translated as "eternal" in verse 23. Rom 6:21-23. In these verses Paul wraps up a lengthy argument in which he encourages followers of Christ to become obedient to righteousness. Apparently, there were some Christians who felt that because of grace that it didn't matter what they did with their lives. But Paul unequivocally rejects this idea in verse 15. In the end, he says in verses 21-23, we have two choices: death (verse 21 and 23) that comes from doing iniquity, or holiness (sanctification and purity) with the result of eternal life (verses 22 and 23). Rom 7:1. Compare the usage of this word in Rom 5:21; Rom 6:9; Rom 6:14. Note esp. Rom 6:14 since it seems this chapter is will be taking up the question of what it means to be "not under the law, but under grace." Rom 7:2: Bound by the law. Paul seems to be referring to the law described in Deut 24:1. Rom 7:4: Wherefore ... ye also. The phrasing here draws a comparison between Jewish law as it pertains to a woman whose husband as died. However, this should not be read strictly as an analogy. That is, there are themes from this example that Paul will employ in discussing law—namely, the ideas of law, death, and union (old and new)—however, trying to make one-to-one identification mappings between, say, the first husband and the law, seem to be strained, going beyond Paul's purpose. Rom 7:5: Which were by the law. Although this is a fairly literal translation of the Greek, most modern translations amend this so it makes more sense. Several translations (e.g. NRSV, NASB, NET, NIV, NKJV) add the word "arouse" to make more sense of the phrase. For example, the NRSV for this verse is: "While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death" (emphasis added). In this sense, perhaps the "sinful passions" (NRSV) or "motions of sins" (KJV) are "by the law" because the law, in prohibiting a certain act, makes that very act more attractive. That is, in the very act of prohibiting an act, attention is drawn to that act. However, it should be noted, that although several modern translations seem to take this approach, this is only one of several possible interpretive directions to take. James D. G. Dunn, for example, in his Word Biblical Commentary volume on Romans 1-8, translates this verse as: "For when we were in the flesh the sinful passions which operate through the law were effective in what we are and do so as to bear fruit for death." Here, the phrase "the sinful passions which operate through the law" seems truer to the ambiguity in the Greek in that it allows for this "operat[ion]" of sin through (or by) the law to function in many possible ways, either by arousing interest in sin, or by some other way (Dunn seems to take this in terms of the law acting through us, tying in, perhaps, to the notion of serving the law of sin rather than the law of God; cf. Rom 7:6; Rom 7:25). I would also cite 2 Nephi 2:13(11-13) which suggests a different reading of Romans 7:5 than that suggested by the other authors cited. I further think the larger context also agreeable to this meaning. That is, that sin, being an act of breaking the law, can only exist in a context where there is law. Therefore, if there was no law, then there would be no sin and it can justly be said that sin takes its existence from the law and is therefore enabled to work in us because of the law. So, I would then read Romans 7:5 as being an extension of the act played out in the garden of eden. Man became mortal because of transgression and that transgression still works in us unto death, but not just this "original" sin, but also the suggestion seems to remain that other sins that we commit ourselves contribute to this decay. A question in my mind is that if the simple transgression of Adam and Eve still works within us to make us mortal, to produce a temporal decay, then can the sins of our other progenitors have also contributed to this decay? Not having read the authors cited, perhaps the do take up some of these ideas. Any thoughts? I was wondering the same thing regarding 2 Ne 2. As my jumbled notes on this probably make obvious, I'm not very clear on what "typical" Bible scholars think about this passage (and whole chapter), let alone how a Mormon reading might differ. My plan is to try and study what Bible scholars think about this chapter, then think how 2 Ne 2 might influence how we read this chapter, and finally take up the intriguing JST on this passage. Actually, I think the subsequent verses will help us think about what Paul is up to here, but I haven't really made sense of them yet for myself yet. Onward ho.... --RobertC 19:00, 24 August 2007 (CEST) Rom 7:6. It seems that Paul's purpose in employing this marriage analogy (vv. 1-6) is to argue that the law's grasp does not extend beyond death. In light of the "baptized into [Christ's] death" (Rom 6:3) theme in chapter 6, the idea seems to be that in baptism, the Christian is "delivered from the law" ("discharged from the law" in the NRSV; in Greek, the same verb is used here, katargeo, as in verse 2 to describe the way in which a woman whose husband dies is "loosed from the law"). Rom 7:9. Before we hear the gospel, before we have the law, we are alive, sinless. When the law comes, we die. Here we have a possible explanation for why "gentiles" sometimes seem to weather the consequences of sin better than saints. Pornography is the perfect example. Statistics seem to indicate that rates of addiction are higher in Mormon areas. Undoubtedly, these addictions take a much higher toll than they do for "gentiles." The reason is simple. Where there is a law, there is spiritual death, and all the consequences of that death. Although I believe that even for "gentiles" there are consequences to certain actions that we as Mormons call "sins," these consequences do not include spiritual death on the same level we as LDS members experience. Rom 7:15-25: JST. Verses 15-25 take on a clearer and less awkward meaning in JST (passages not noted in LDS Edition. See The New Testament with the Joseph Smith Translation by Steven and Julie Hite or the edition by Wayment. Rom 7:20. Is Paul advocating personal responsibility away from us by noting our helplessness in the face of the power of sin upon us? In a way, yes, but in a way, no. We don't have to feel so guilty if our flesh is full of lusts, for that is it's natural state. "The natural man is an enemy to God" as King Benjamin said. Paul says nothing good comes from the flesh, which may be only his personal opinion based on his own demons, (i.e. his thorn in the flesh). But it is true that the flesh is an unruly member, no matter how deep our spiritual commitment to the commandments. It is only through Christ that we can hope to achieve freedom through forgiveness. Rom 8:13. This is similar to Christ's idea: "He that findeth his life shall lose it, and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Matthew 10:39 Rom 8:33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?. A beautiful scripture on the pointlessness of criticism and passing judgement on those who have been called and chosen. Sure they may not always be perfect, but when they have already been saved by Christ who made intercession for them, who are we to ever pass judgement upon them? Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 7:18. In the flesh dwelleth no good thing. Paul's attitudes about the flesh are unique among biblical and latter day authors. In our day, the "flesh" is not seen as so perverse. The "flesh" nature of deity is continually asserted, as is the divine nature of the physical intimacy within marriage. Having a "body" is seen as one of the greatest things a spirit can ever attain. So why is the flesh so continually vilified by Paul? Rom 8:20. Who his the "him" in the phrase "him who hath subjected the same"? God? Adam? Someone else? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 8:11-15. For a poetic exploration of a pagan's conversion, see User: Joe Spencer/grace. Rom 8:16-17. Keith R. Edwards, "That They Might Know Thee," Ensign, Nov 2006, pp. 99–101. Elder Edwards said: "Paul wrote that our suffering may give us an opportunity to know the Savior better... Now, lest anyone go looking for hardship and suffering, that is not what is taught. Rather, it is the attitude with which we approach our hardships and trials that allows us to know the Savior better." Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11

Rom 6:6-10

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 5-8 Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 5:2. With the free gift of God's grace,we are invited to rejoice in our salvation. Yet do we need to do anything more? Yes: to glory in tribulation which leads to patience and hope. This could be seen as Paul's version of the "first principles and ordinances of the gospel." First, faith, second suffering through tribulation, third patience or endurance, and fourth hope. Through the process, we finally arrive at the Holy Ghost, just as we do in Joseph Smith's first principles and ordinances. Rom 5:5: Shed abroad. The Greek word ekcheo ("shed abroad") is also used in the sense of "pouring" in the LXX in Num 19:17 and Ex 30:18 in a purification rite. This is also the word used in Matt 26:28 to describe Christ's blood being shed for the sins of others, the same phrasing we find in our sacrament prayers. See also Matt 23:35; Acts 22:20; Rev 16:6. Rom 5:8: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Here Paul notes that Christ suffers for sinners, not saints, or the righteous. "None are rightious" he had said previously. In a sense, Christ is most often with us when we are sinners, suffering and silently enduring with us. Although as Saints, we may feel his presence, yet he is also very present in the life of the sinner, gently trying to mould the life in a way that might promote some kind of healing. But even if not, he is always there, suffering all things with the sinner. Rom 5:13: Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Some believe that the heathen will go to hell. However, Paul clearly states that sin is never imputed unto those without the law. Some might argue, but the Fall of Adam makes all men sinful. Not according to this scripture. Without the law, there is no sin, no condemnation, and thus, no hell. Only mortal death is imputed from the Fall. But spiritual death comes only from our own sins, in the presence of a known law. Paul says even of himself, in Rom 7:9, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Paul was scott free, sinless, alive, and uncondemned before he knew the law. Then when he heard the law, he died. Rom 6:22: Everlasting. The same Greek word (aionios) that is translated as "everlasting" in verse 22 is translated as "eternal" in verse 23. Rom 6:21-23. In these verses Paul wraps up a lengthy argument in which he encourages followers of Christ to become obedient to righteousness. Apparently, there were some Christians who felt that because of grace that it didn't matter what they did with their lives. But Paul unequivocally rejects this idea in verse 15. In the end, he says in verses 21-23, we have two choices: death (verse 21 and 23) that comes from doing iniquity, or holiness (sanctification and purity) with the result of eternal life (verses 22 and 23). Rom 7:1. Compare the usage of this word in Rom 5:21; Rom 6:9; Rom 6:14. Note esp. Rom 6:14 since it seems this chapter is will be taking up the question of what it means to be "not under the law, but under grace." Rom 7:2: Bound by the law. Paul seems to be referring to the law described in Deut 24:1. Rom 7:4: Wherefore ... ye also. The phrasing here draws a comparison between Jewish law as it pertains to a woman whose husband as died. However, this should not be read strictly as an analogy. That is, there are themes from this example that Paul will employ in discussing law—namely, the ideas of law, death, and union (old and new)—however, trying to make one-to-one identification mappings between, say, the first husband and the law, seem to be strained, going beyond Paul's purpose. Rom 7:5: Which were by the law. Although this is a fairly literal translation of the Greek, most modern translations amend this so it makes more sense. Several translations (e.g. NRSV, NASB, NET, NIV, NKJV) add the word "arouse" to make more sense of the phrase. For example, the NRSV for this verse is: "While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death" (emphasis added). In this sense, perhaps the "sinful passions" (NRSV) or "motions of sins" (KJV) are "by the law" because the law, in prohibiting a certain act, makes that very act more attractive. That is, in the very act of prohibiting an act, attention is drawn to that act. However, it should be noted, that although several modern translations seem to take this approach, this is only one of several possible interpretive directions to take. James D. G. Dunn, for example, in his Word Biblical Commentary volume on Romans 1-8, translates this verse as: "For when we were in the flesh the sinful passions which operate through the law were effective in what we are and do so as to bear fruit for death." Here, the phrase "the sinful passions which operate through the law" seems truer to the ambiguity in the Greek in that it allows for this "operat[ion]" of sin through (or by) the law to function in many possible ways, either by arousing interest in sin, or by some other way (Dunn seems to take this in terms of the law acting through us, tying in, perhaps, to the notion of serving the law of sin rather than the law of God; cf. Rom 7:6; Rom 7:25). I would also cite 2 Nephi 2:13(11-13) which suggests a different reading of Romans 7:5 than that suggested by the other authors cited. I further think the larger context also agreeable to this meaning. That is, that sin, being an act of breaking the law, can only exist in a context where there is law. Therefore, if there was no law, then there would be no sin and it can justly be said that sin takes its existence from the law and is therefore enabled to work in us because of the law. So, I would then read Romans 7:5 as being an extension of the act played out in the garden of eden. Man became mortal because of transgression and that transgression still works in us unto death, but not just this "original" sin, but also the suggestion seems to remain that other sins that we commit ourselves contribute to this decay. A question in my mind is that if the simple transgression of Adam and Eve still works within us to make us mortal, to produce a temporal decay, then can the sins of our other progenitors have also contributed to this decay? Not having read the authors cited, perhaps the do take up some of these ideas. Any thoughts? I was wondering the same thing regarding 2 Ne 2. As my jumbled notes on this probably make obvious, I'm not very clear on what "typical" Bible scholars think about this passage (and whole chapter), let alone how a Mormon reading might differ. My plan is to try and study what Bible scholars think about this chapter, then think how 2 Ne 2 might influence how we read this chapter, and finally take up the intriguing JST on this passage. Actually, I think the subsequent verses will help us think about what Paul is up to here, but I haven't really made sense of them yet for myself yet. Onward ho.... --RobertC 19:00, 24 August 2007 (CEST) Rom 7:6. It seems that Paul's purpose in employing this marriage analogy (vv. 1-6) is to argue that the law's grasp does not extend beyond death. In light of the "baptized into [Christ's] death" (Rom 6:3) theme in chapter 6, the idea seems to be that in baptism, the Christian is "delivered from the law" ("discharged from the law" in the NRSV; in Greek, the same verb is used here, katargeo, as in verse 2 to describe the way in which a woman whose husband dies is "loosed from the law"). Rom 7:9. Before we hear the gospel, before we have the law, we are alive, sinless. When the law comes, we die. Here we have a possible explanation for why "gentiles" sometimes seem to weather the consequences of sin better than saints. Pornography is the perfect example. Statistics seem to indicate that rates of addiction are higher in Mormon areas. Undoubtedly, these addictions take a much higher toll than they do for "gentiles." The reason is simple. Where there is a law, there is spiritual death, and all the consequences of that death. Although I believe that even for "gentiles" there are consequences to certain actions that we as Mormons call "sins," these consequences do not include spiritual death on the same level we as LDS members experience. Rom 7:15-25: JST. Verses 15-25 take on a clearer and less awkward meaning in JST (passages not noted in LDS Edition. See The New Testament with the Joseph Smith Translation by Steven and Julie Hite or the edition by Wayment. Rom 7:20. Is Paul advocating personal responsibility away from us by noting our helplessness in the face of the power of sin upon us? In a way, yes, but in a way, no. We don't have to feel so guilty if our flesh is full of lusts, for that is it's natural state. "The natural man is an enemy to God" as King Benjamin said. Paul says nothing good comes from the flesh, which may be only his personal opinion based on his own demons, (i.e. his thorn in the flesh). But it is true that the flesh is an unruly member, no matter how deep our spiritual commitment to the commandments. It is only through Christ that we can hope to achieve freedom through forgiveness. Rom 8:13. This is similar to Christ's idea: "He that findeth his life shall lose it, and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Matthew 10:39 Rom 8:33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?. A beautiful scripture on the pointlessness of criticism and passing judgement on those who have been called and chosen. Sure they may not always be perfect, but when they have already been saved by Christ who made intercession for them, who are we to ever pass judgement upon them? Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 7:18. In the flesh dwelleth no good thing. Paul's attitudes about the flesh are unique among biblical and latter day authors. In our day, the "flesh" is not seen as so perverse. The "flesh" nature of deity is continually asserted, as is the divine nature of the physical intimacy within marriage. Having a "body" is seen as one of the greatest things a spirit can ever attain. So why is the flesh so continually vilified by Paul? Rom 8:20. Who his the "him" in the phrase "him who hath subjected the same"? God? Adam? Someone else? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 8:11-15. For a poetic exploration of a pagan's conversion, see User: Joe Spencer/grace. Rom 8:16-17. Keith R. Edwards, "That They Might Know Thee," Ensign, Nov 2006, pp. 99–101. Elder Edwards said: "Paul wrote that our suffering may give us an opportunity to know the Savior better... Now, lest anyone go looking for hardship and suffering, that is not what is taught. Rather, it is the attitude with which we approach our hardships and trials that allows us to know the Savior better." Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11

Rom 6:11-15

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 5-8 Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 5:2. With the free gift of God's grace,we are invited to rejoice in our salvation. Yet do we need to do anything more? Yes: to glory in tribulation which leads to patience and hope. This could be seen as Paul's version of the "first principles and ordinances of the gospel." First, faith, second suffering through tribulation, third patience or endurance, and fourth hope. Through the process, we finally arrive at the Holy Ghost, just as we do in Joseph Smith's first principles and ordinances. Rom 5:5: Shed abroad. The Greek word ekcheo ("shed abroad") is also used in the sense of "pouring" in the LXX in Num 19:17 and Ex 30:18 in a purification rite. This is also the word used in Matt 26:28 to describe Christ's blood being shed for the sins of others, the same phrasing we find in our sacrament prayers. See also Matt 23:35; Acts 22:20; Rev 16:6. Rom 5:8: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Here Paul notes that Christ suffers for sinners, not saints, or the righteous. "None are rightious" he had said previously. In a sense, Christ is most often with us when we are sinners, suffering and silently enduring with us. Although as Saints, we may feel his presence, yet he is also very present in the life of the sinner, gently trying to mould the life in a way that might promote some kind of healing. But even if not, he is always there, suffering all things with the sinner. Rom 5:13: Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Some believe that the heathen will go to hell. However, Paul clearly states that sin is never imputed unto those without the law. Some might argue, but the Fall of Adam makes all men sinful. Not according to this scripture. Without the law, there is no sin, no condemnation, and thus, no hell. Only mortal death is imputed from the Fall. But spiritual death comes only from our own sins, in the presence of a known law. Paul says even of himself, in Rom 7:9, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Paul was scott free, sinless, alive, and uncondemned before he knew the law. Then when he heard the law, he died. Rom 6:22: Everlasting. The same Greek word (aionios) that is translated as "everlasting" in verse 22 is translated as "eternal" in verse 23. Rom 6:21-23. In these verses Paul wraps up a lengthy argument in which he encourages followers of Christ to become obedient to righteousness. Apparently, there were some Christians who felt that because of grace that it didn't matter what they did with their lives. But Paul unequivocally rejects this idea in verse 15. In the end, he says in verses 21-23, we have two choices: death (verse 21 and 23) that comes from doing iniquity, or holiness (sanctification and purity) with the result of eternal life (verses 22 and 23). Rom 7:1. Compare the usage of this word in Rom 5:21; Rom 6:9; Rom 6:14. Note esp. Rom 6:14 since it seems this chapter is will be taking up the question of what it means to be "not under the law, but under grace." Rom 7:2: Bound by the law. Paul seems to be referring to the law described in Deut 24:1. Rom 7:4: Wherefore ... ye also. The phrasing here draws a comparison between Jewish law as it pertains to a woman whose husband as died. However, this should not be read strictly as an analogy. That is, there are themes from this example that Paul will employ in discussing law—namely, the ideas of law, death, and union (old and new)—however, trying to make one-to-one identification mappings between, say, the first husband and the law, seem to be strained, going beyond Paul's purpose. Rom 7:5: Which were by the law. Although this is a fairly literal translation of the Greek, most modern translations amend this so it makes more sense. Several translations (e.g. NRSV, NASB, NET, NIV, NKJV) add the word "arouse" to make more sense of the phrase. For example, the NRSV for this verse is: "While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death" (emphasis added). In this sense, perhaps the "sinful passions" (NRSV) or "motions of sins" (KJV) are "by the law" because the law, in prohibiting a certain act, makes that very act more attractive. That is, in the very act of prohibiting an act, attention is drawn to that act. However, it should be noted, that although several modern translations seem to take this approach, this is only one of several possible interpretive directions to take. James D. G. Dunn, for example, in his Word Biblical Commentary volume on Romans 1-8, translates this verse as: "For when we were in the flesh the sinful passions which operate through the law were effective in what we are and do so as to bear fruit for death." Here, the phrase "the sinful passions which operate through the law" seems truer to the ambiguity in the Greek in that it allows for this "operat[ion]" of sin through (or by) the law to function in many possible ways, either by arousing interest in sin, or by some other way (Dunn seems to take this in terms of the law acting through us, tying in, perhaps, to the notion of serving the law of sin rather than the law of God; cf. Rom 7:6; Rom 7:25). I would also cite 2 Nephi 2:13(11-13) which suggests a different reading of Romans 7:5 than that suggested by the other authors cited. I further think the larger context also agreeable to this meaning. That is, that sin, being an act of breaking the law, can only exist in a context where there is law. Therefore, if there was no law, then there would be no sin and it can justly be said that sin takes its existence from the law and is therefore enabled to work in us because of the law. So, I would then read Romans 7:5 as being an extension of the act played out in the garden of eden. Man became mortal because of transgression and that transgression still works in us unto death, but not just this "original" sin, but also the suggestion seems to remain that other sins that we commit ourselves contribute to this decay. A question in my mind is that if the simple transgression of Adam and Eve still works within us to make us mortal, to produce a temporal decay, then can the sins of our other progenitors have also contributed to this decay? Not having read the authors cited, perhaps the do take up some of these ideas. Any thoughts? I was wondering the same thing regarding 2 Ne 2. As my jumbled notes on this probably make obvious, I'm not very clear on what "typical" Bible scholars think about this passage (and whole chapter), let alone how a Mormon reading might differ. My plan is to try and study what Bible scholars think about this chapter, then think how 2 Ne 2 might influence how we read this chapter, and finally take up the intriguing JST on this passage. Actually, I think the subsequent verses will help us think about what Paul is up to here, but I haven't really made sense of them yet for myself yet. Onward ho.... --RobertC 19:00, 24 August 2007 (CEST) Rom 7:6. It seems that Paul's purpose in employing this marriage analogy (vv. 1-6) is to argue that the law's grasp does not extend beyond death. In light of the "baptized into [Christ's] death" (Rom 6:3) theme in chapter 6, the idea seems to be that in baptism, the Christian is "delivered from the law" ("discharged from the law" in the NRSV; in Greek, the same verb is used here, katargeo, as in verse 2 to describe the way in which a woman whose husband dies is "loosed from the law"). Rom 7:9. Before we hear the gospel, before we have the law, we are alive, sinless. When the law comes, we die. Here we have a possible explanation for why "gentiles" sometimes seem to weather the consequences of sin better than saints. Pornography is the perfect example. Statistics seem to indicate that rates of addiction are higher in Mormon areas. Undoubtedly, these addictions take a much higher toll than they do for "gentiles." The reason is simple. Where there is a law, there is spiritual death, and all the consequences of that death. Although I believe that even for "gentiles" there are consequences to certain actions that we as Mormons call "sins," these consequences do not include spiritual death on the same level we as LDS members experience. Rom 7:15-25: JST. Verses 15-25 take on a clearer and less awkward meaning in JST (passages not noted in LDS Edition. See The New Testament with the Joseph Smith Translation by Steven and Julie Hite or the edition by Wayment. Rom 7:20. Is Paul advocating personal responsibility away from us by noting our helplessness in the face of the power of sin upon us? In a way, yes, but in a way, no. We don't have to feel so guilty if our flesh is full of lusts, for that is it's natural state. "The natural man is an enemy to God" as King Benjamin said. Paul says nothing good comes from the flesh, which may be only his personal opinion based on his own demons, (i.e. his thorn in the flesh). But it is true that the flesh is an unruly member, no matter how deep our spiritual commitment to the commandments. It is only through Christ that we can hope to achieve freedom through forgiveness. Rom 8:13. This is similar to Christ's idea: "He that findeth his life shall lose it, and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Matthew 10:39 Rom 8:33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?. A beautiful scripture on the pointlessness of criticism and passing judgement on those who have been called and chosen. Sure they may not always be perfect, but when they have already been saved by Christ who made intercession for them, who are we to ever pass judgement upon them? Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 7:18. In the flesh dwelleth no good thing. Paul's attitudes about the flesh are unique among biblical and latter day authors. In our day, the "flesh" is not seen as so perverse. The "flesh" nature of deity is continually asserted, as is the divine nature of the physical intimacy within marriage. Having a "body" is seen as one of the greatest things a spirit can ever attain. So why is the flesh so continually vilified by Paul? Rom 8:20. Who his the "him" in the phrase "him who hath subjected the same"? God? Adam? Someone else? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 8:11-15. For a poetic exploration of a pagan's conversion, see User: Joe Spencer/grace. Rom 8:16-17. Keith R. Edwards, "That They Might Know Thee," Ensign, Nov 2006, pp. 99–101. Elder Edwards said: "Paul wrote that our suffering may give us an opportunity to know the Savior better... Now, lest anyone go looking for hardship and suffering, that is not what is taught. Rather, it is the attitude with which we approach our hardships and trials that allows us to know the Savior better." Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11

Rom 6:16-20

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 5-8 Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 5:2. With the free gift of God's grace,we are invited to rejoice in our salvation. Yet do we need to do anything more? Yes: to glory in tribulation which leads to patience and hope. This could be seen as Paul's version of the "first principles and ordinances of the gospel." First, faith, second suffering through tribulation, third patience or endurance, and fourth hope. Through the process, we finally arrive at the Holy Ghost, just as we do in Joseph Smith's first principles and ordinances. Rom 5:5: Shed abroad. The Greek word ekcheo ("shed abroad") is also used in the sense of "pouring" in the LXX in Num 19:17 and Ex 30:18 in a purification rite. This is also the word used in Matt 26:28 to describe Christ's blood being shed for the sins of others, the same phrasing we find in our sacrament prayers. See also Matt 23:35; Acts 22:20; Rev 16:6. Rom 5:8: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Here Paul notes that Christ suffers for sinners, not saints, or the righteous. "None are rightious" he had said previously. In a sense, Christ is most often with us when we are sinners, suffering and silently enduring with us. Although as Saints, we may feel his presence, yet he is also very present in the life of the sinner, gently trying to mould the life in a way that might promote some kind of healing. But even if not, he is always there, suffering all things with the sinner. Rom 5:13: Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Some believe that the heathen will go to hell. However, Paul clearly states that sin is never imputed unto those without the law. Some might argue, but the Fall of Adam makes all men sinful. Not according to this scripture. Without the law, there is no sin, no condemnation, and thus, no hell. Only mortal death is imputed from the Fall. But spiritual death comes only from our own sins, in the presence of a known law. Paul says even of himself, in Rom 7:9, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Paul was scott free, sinless, alive, and uncondemned before he knew the law. Then when he heard the law, he died. Rom 6:22: Everlasting. The same Greek word (aionios) that is translated as "everlasting" in verse 22 is translated as "eternal" in verse 23. Rom 6:21-23. In these verses Paul wraps up a lengthy argument in which he encourages followers of Christ to become obedient to righteousness. Apparently, there were some Christians who felt that because of grace that it didn't matter what they did with their lives. But Paul unequivocally rejects this idea in verse 15. In the end, he says in verses 21-23, we have two choices: death (verse 21 and 23) that comes from doing iniquity, or holiness (sanctification and purity) with the result of eternal life (verses 22 and 23). Rom 7:1. Compare the usage of this word in Rom 5:21; Rom 6:9; Rom 6:14. Note esp. Rom 6:14 since it seems this chapter is will be taking up the question of what it means to be "not under the law, but under grace." Rom 7:2: Bound by the law. Paul seems to be referring to the law described in Deut 24:1. Rom 7:4: Wherefore ... ye also. The phrasing here draws a comparison between Jewish law as it pertains to a woman whose husband as died. However, this should not be read strictly as an analogy. That is, there are themes from this example that Paul will employ in discussing law—namely, the ideas of law, death, and union (old and new)—however, trying to make one-to-one identification mappings between, say, the first husband and the law, seem to be strained, going beyond Paul's purpose. Rom 7:5: Which were by the law. Although this is a fairly literal translation of the Greek, most modern translations amend this so it makes more sense. Several translations (e.g. NRSV, NASB, NET, NIV, NKJV) add the word "arouse" to make more sense of the phrase. For example, the NRSV for this verse is: "While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death" (emphasis added). In this sense, perhaps the "sinful passions" (NRSV) or "motions of sins" (KJV) are "by the law" because the law, in prohibiting a certain act, makes that very act more attractive. That is, in the very act of prohibiting an act, attention is drawn to that act. However, it should be noted, that although several modern translations seem to take this approach, this is only one of several possible interpretive directions to take. James D. G. Dunn, for example, in his Word Biblical Commentary volume on Romans 1-8, translates this verse as: "For when we were in the flesh the sinful passions which operate through the law were effective in what we are and do so as to bear fruit for death." Here, the phrase "the sinful passions which operate through the law" seems truer to the ambiguity in the Greek in that it allows for this "operat[ion]" of sin through (or by) the law to function in many possible ways, either by arousing interest in sin, or by some other way (Dunn seems to take this in terms of the law acting through us, tying in, perhaps, to the notion of serving the law of sin rather than the law of God; cf. Rom 7:6; Rom 7:25). I would also cite 2 Nephi 2:13(11-13) which suggests a different reading of Romans 7:5 than that suggested by the other authors cited. I further think the larger context also agreeable to this meaning. That is, that sin, being an act of breaking the law, can only exist in a context where there is law. Therefore, if there was no law, then there would be no sin and it can justly be said that sin takes its existence from the law and is therefore enabled to work in us because of the law. So, I would then read Romans 7:5 as being an extension of the act played out in the garden of eden. Man became mortal because of transgression and that transgression still works in us unto death, but not just this "original" sin, but also the suggestion seems to remain that other sins that we commit ourselves contribute to this decay. A question in my mind is that if the simple transgression of Adam and Eve still works within us to make us mortal, to produce a temporal decay, then can the sins of our other progenitors have also contributed to this decay? Not having read the authors cited, perhaps the do take up some of these ideas. Any thoughts? I was wondering the same thing regarding 2 Ne 2. As my jumbled notes on this probably make obvious, I'm not very clear on what "typical" Bible scholars think about this passage (and whole chapter), let alone how a Mormon reading might differ. My plan is to try and study what Bible scholars think about this chapter, then think how 2 Ne 2 might influence how we read this chapter, and finally take up the intriguing JST on this passage. Actually, I think the subsequent verses will help us think about what Paul is up to here, but I haven't really made sense of them yet for myself yet. Onward ho.... --RobertC 19:00, 24 August 2007 (CEST) Rom 7:6. It seems that Paul's purpose in employing this marriage analogy (vv. 1-6) is to argue that the law's grasp does not extend beyond death. In light of the "baptized into [Christ's] death" (Rom 6:3) theme in chapter 6, the idea seems to be that in baptism, the Christian is "delivered from the law" ("discharged from the law" in the NRSV; in Greek, the same verb is used here, katargeo, as in verse 2 to describe the way in which a woman whose husband dies is "loosed from the law"). Rom 7:9. Before we hear the gospel, before we have the law, we are alive, sinless. When the law comes, we die. Here we have a possible explanation for why "gentiles" sometimes seem to weather the consequences of sin better than saints. Pornography is the perfect example. Statistics seem to indicate that rates of addiction are higher in Mormon areas. Undoubtedly, these addictions take a much higher toll than they do for "gentiles." The reason is simple. Where there is a law, there is spiritual death, and all the consequences of that death. Although I believe that even for "gentiles" there are consequences to certain actions that we as Mormons call "sins," these consequences do not include spiritual death on the same level we as LDS members experience. Rom 7:15-25: JST. Verses 15-25 take on a clearer and less awkward meaning in JST (passages not noted in LDS Edition. See The New Testament with the Joseph Smith Translation by Steven and Julie Hite or the edition by Wayment. Rom 7:20. Is Paul advocating personal responsibility away from us by noting our helplessness in the face of the power of sin upon us? In a way, yes, but in a way, no. We don't have to feel so guilty if our flesh is full of lusts, for that is it's natural state. "The natural man is an enemy to God" as King Benjamin said. Paul says nothing good comes from the flesh, which may be only his personal opinion based on his own demons, (i.e. his thorn in the flesh). But it is true that the flesh is an unruly member, no matter how deep our spiritual commitment to the commandments. It is only through Christ that we can hope to achieve freedom through forgiveness. Rom 8:13. This is similar to Christ's idea: "He that findeth his life shall lose it, and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Matthew 10:39 Rom 8:33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?. A beautiful scripture on the pointlessness of criticism and passing judgement on those who have been called and chosen. Sure they may not always be perfect, but when they have already been saved by Christ who made intercession for them, who are we to ever pass judgement upon them? Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 7:18. In the flesh dwelleth no good thing. Paul's attitudes about the flesh are unique among biblical and latter day authors. In our day, the "flesh" is not seen as so perverse. The "flesh" nature of deity is continually asserted, as is the divine nature of the physical intimacy within marriage. Having a "body" is seen as one of the greatest things a spirit can ever attain. So why is the flesh so continually vilified by Paul? Rom 8:20. Who his the "him" in the phrase "him who hath subjected the same"? God? Adam? Someone else? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 8:11-15. For a poetic exploration of a pagan's conversion, see User: Joe Spencer/grace. Rom 8:16-17. Keith R. Edwards, "That They Might Know Thee," Ensign, Nov 2006, pp. 99–101. Elder Edwards said: "Paul wrote that our suffering may give us an opportunity to know the Savior better... Now, lest anyone go looking for hardship and suffering, that is not what is taught. Rather, it is the attitude with which we approach our hardships and trials that allows us to know the Savior better." Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11

Rom 6:21-23

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 5-8 Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 5:2. With the free gift of God's grace,we are invited to rejoice in our salvation. Yet do we need to do anything more? Yes: to glory in tribulation which leads to patience and hope. This could be seen as Paul's version of the "first principles and ordinances of the gospel." First, faith, second suffering through tribulation, third patience or endurance, and fourth hope. Through the process, we finally arrive at the Holy Ghost, just as we do in Joseph Smith's first principles and ordinances. Rom 5:5: Shed abroad. The Greek word ekcheo ("shed abroad") is also used in the sense of "pouring" in the LXX in Num 19:17 and Ex 30:18 in a purification rite. This is also the word used in Matt 26:28 to describe Christ's blood being shed for the sins of others, the same phrasing we find in our sacrament prayers. See also Matt 23:35; Acts 22:20; Rev 16:6. Rom 5:8: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Here Paul notes that Christ suffers for sinners, not saints, or the righteous. "None are rightious" he had said previously. In a sense, Christ is most often with us when we are sinners, suffering and silently enduring with us. Although as Saints, we may feel his presence, yet he is also very present in the life of the sinner, gently trying to mould the life in a way that might promote some kind of healing. But even if not, he is always there, suffering all things with the sinner. Rom 5:13: Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Some believe that the heathen will go to hell. However, Paul clearly states that sin is never imputed unto those without the law. Some might argue, but the Fall of Adam makes all men sinful. Not according to this scripture. Without the law, there is no sin, no condemnation, and thus, no hell. Only mortal death is imputed from the Fall. But spiritual death comes only from our own sins, in the presence of a known law. Paul says even of himself, in Rom 7:9, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Paul was scott free, sinless, alive, and uncondemned before he knew the law. Then when he heard the law, he died. Rom 6:22: Everlasting. The same Greek word (aionios) that is translated as "everlasting" in verse 22 is translated as "eternal" in verse 23. Rom 6:21-23. In these verses Paul wraps up a lengthy argument in which he encourages followers of Christ to become obedient to righteousness. Apparently, there were some Christians who felt that because of grace that it didn't matter what they did with their lives. But Paul unequivocally rejects this idea in verse 15. In the end, he says in verses 21-23, we have two choices: death (verse 21 and 23) that comes from doing iniquity, or holiness (sanctification and purity) with the result of eternal life (verses 22 and 23). Rom 7:1. Compare the usage of this word in Rom 5:21; Rom 6:9; Rom 6:14. Note esp. Rom 6:14 since it seems this chapter is will be taking up the question of what it means to be "not under the law, but under grace." Rom 7:2: Bound by the law. Paul seems to be referring to the law described in Deut 24:1. Rom 7:4: Wherefore ... ye also. The phrasing here draws a comparison between Jewish law as it pertains to a woman whose husband as died. However, this should not be read strictly as an analogy. That is, there are themes from this example that Paul will employ in discussing law—namely, the ideas of law, death, and union (old and new)—however, trying to make one-to-one identification mappings between, say, the first husband and the law, seem to be strained, going beyond Paul's purpose. Rom 7:5: Which were by the law. Although this is a fairly literal translation of the Greek, most modern translations amend this so it makes more sense. Several translations (e.g. NRSV, NASB, NET, NIV, NKJV) add the word "arouse" to make more sense of the phrase. For example, the NRSV for this verse is: "While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death" (emphasis added). In this sense, perhaps the "sinful passions" (NRSV) or "motions of sins" (KJV) are "by the law" because the law, in prohibiting a certain act, makes that very act more attractive. That is, in the very act of prohibiting an act, attention is drawn to that act. However, it should be noted, that although several modern translations seem to take this approach, this is only one of several possible interpretive directions to take. James D. G. Dunn, for example, in his Word Biblical Commentary volume on Romans 1-8, translates this verse as: "For when we were in the flesh the sinful passions which operate through the law were effective in what we are and do so as to bear fruit for death." Here, the phrase "the sinful passions which operate through the law" seems truer to the ambiguity in the Greek in that it allows for this "operat[ion]" of sin through (or by) the law to function in many possible ways, either by arousing interest in sin, or by some other way (Dunn seems to take this in terms of the law acting through us, tying in, perhaps, to the notion of serving the law of sin rather than the law of God; cf. Rom 7:6; Rom 7:25). I would also cite 2 Nephi 2:13(11-13) which suggests a different reading of Romans 7:5 than that suggested by the other authors cited. I further think the larger context also agreeable to this meaning. That is, that sin, being an act of breaking the law, can only exist in a context where there is law. Therefore, if there was no law, then there would be no sin and it can justly be said that sin takes its existence from the law and is therefore enabled to work in us because of the law. So, I would then read Romans 7:5 as being an extension of the act played out in the garden of eden. Man became mortal because of transgression and that transgression still works in us unto death, but not just this "original" sin, but also the suggestion seems to remain that other sins that we commit ourselves contribute to this decay. A question in my mind is that if the simple transgression of Adam and Eve still works within us to make us mortal, to produce a temporal decay, then can the sins of our other progenitors have also contributed to this decay? Not having read the authors cited, perhaps the do take up some of these ideas. Any thoughts? I was wondering the same thing regarding 2 Ne 2. As my jumbled notes on this probably make obvious, I'm not very clear on what "typical" Bible scholars think about this passage (and whole chapter), let alone how a Mormon reading might differ. My plan is to try and study what Bible scholars think about this chapter, then think how 2 Ne 2 might influence how we read this chapter, and finally take up the intriguing JST on this passage. Actually, I think the subsequent verses will help us think about what Paul is up to here, but I haven't really made sense of them yet for myself yet. Onward ho.... --RobertC 19:00, 24 August 2007 (CEST) Rom 7:6. It seems that Paul's purpose in employing this marriage analogy (vv. 1-6) is to argue that the law's grasp does not extend beyond death. In light of the "baptized into [Christ's] death" (Rom 6:3) theme in chapter 6, the idea seems to be that in baptism, the Christian is "delivered from the law" ("discharged from the law" in the NRSV; in Greek, the same verb is used here, katargeo, as in verse 2 to describe the way in which a woman whose husband dies is "loosed from the law"). Rom 7:9. Before we hear the gospel, before we have the law, we are alive, sinless. When the law comes, we die. Here we have a possible explanation for why "gentiles" sometimes seem to weather the consequences of sin better than saints. Pornography is the perfect example. Statistics seem to indicate that rates of addiction are higher in Mormon areas. Undoubtedly, these addictions take a much higher toll than they do for "gentiles." The reason is simple. Where there is a law, there is spiritual death, and all the consequences of that death. Although I believe that even for "gentiles" there are consequences to certain actions that we as Mormons call "sins," these consequences do not include spiritual death on the same level we as LDS members experience. Rom 7:15-25: JST. Verses 15-25 take on a clearer and less awkward meaning in JST (passages not noted in LDS Edition. See The New Testament with the Joseph Smith Translation by Steven and Julie Hite or the edition by Wayment. Rom 7:20. Is Paul advocating personal responsibility away from us by noting our helplessness in the face of the power of sin upon us? In a way, yes, but in a way, no. We don't have to feel so guilty if our flesh is full of lusts, for that is it's natural state. "The natural man is an enemy to God" as King Benjamin said. Paul says nothing good comes from the flesh, which may be only his personal opinion based on his own demons, (i.e. his thorn in the flesh). But it is true that the flesh is an unruly member, no matter how deep our spiritual commitment to the commandments. It is only through Christ that we can hope to achieve freedom through forgiveness. Rom 8:13. This is similar to Christ's idea: "He that findeth his life shall lose it, and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Matthew 10:39 Rom 8:33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?. A beautiful scripture on the pointlessness of criticism and passing judgement on those who have been called and chosen. Sure they may not always be perfect, but when they have already been saved by Christ who made intercession for them, who are we to ever pass judgement upon them? Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 7:18. In the flesh dwelleth no good thing. Paul's attitudes about the flesh are unique among biblical and latter day authors. In our day, the "flesh" is not seen as so perverse. The "flesh" nature of deity is continually asserted, as is the divine nature of the physical intimacy within marriage. Having a "body" is seen as one of the greatest things a spirit can ever attain. So why is the flesh so continually vilified by Paul? Rom 8:20. Who his the "him" in the phrase "him who hath subjected the same"? God? Adam? Someone else? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 8:11-15. For a poetic exploration of a pagan's conversion, see User: Joe Spencer/grace. Rom 8:16-17. Keith R. Edwards, "That They Might Know Thee," Ensign, Nov 2006, pp. 99–101. Elder Edwards said: "Paul wrote that our suffering may give us an opportunity to know the Savior better... Now, lest anyone go looking for hardship and suffering, that is not what is taught. Rather, it is the attitude with which we approach our hardships and trials that allows us to know the Savior better." Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11

Rom 7:1-5

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 5-8 Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 5:2. With the free gift of God's grace,we are invited to rejoice in our salvation. Yet do we need to do anything more? Yes: to glory in tribulation which leads to patience and hope. This could be seen as Paul's version of the "first principles and ordinances of the gospel." First, faith, second suffering through tribulation, third patience or endurance, and fourth hope. Through the process, we finally arrive at the Holy Ghost, just as we do in Joseph Smith's first principles and ordinances. Rom 5:5: Shed abroad. The Greek word ekcheo ("shed abroad") is also used in the sense of "pouring" in the LXX in Num 19:17 and Ex 30:18 in a purification rite. This is also the word used in Matt 26:28 to describe Christ's blood being shed for the sins of others, the same phrasing we find in our sacrament prayers. See also Matt 23:35; Acts 22:20; Rev 16:6. Rom 5:8: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Here Paul notes that Christ suffers for sinners, not saints, or the righteous. "None are rightious" he had said previously. In a sense, Christ is most often with us when we are sinners, suffering and silently enduring with us. Although as Saints, we may feel his presence, yet he is also very present in the life of the sinner, gently trying to mould the life in a way that might promote some kind of healing. But even if not, he is always there, suffering all things with the sinner. Rom 5:13: Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Some believe that the heathen will go to hell. However, Paul clearly states that sin is never imputed unto those without the law. Some might argue, but the Fall of Adam makes all men sinful. Not according to this scripture. Without the law, there is no sin, no condemnation, and thus, no hell. Only mortal death is imputed from the Fall. But spiritual death comes only from our own sins, in the presence of a known law. Paul says even of himself, in Rom 7:9, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Paul was scott free, sinless, alive, and uncondemned before he knew the law. Then when he heard the law, he died. Rom 6:22: Everlasting. The same Greek word (aionios) that is translated as "everlasting" in verse 22 is translated as "eternal" in verse 23. Rom 6:21-23. In these verses Paul wraps up a lengthy argument in which he encourages followers of Christ to become obedient to righteousness. Apparently, there were some Christians who felt that because of grace that it didn't matter what they did with their lives. But Paul unequivocally rejects this idea in verse 15. In the end, he says in verses 21-23, we have two choices: death (verse 21 and 23) that comes from doing iniquity, or holiness (sanctification and purity) with the result of eternal life (verses 22 and 23). Rom 7:1. Compare the usage of this word in Rom 5:21; Rom 6:9; Rom 6:14. Note esp. Rom 6:14 since it seems this chapter is will be taking up the question of what it means to be "not under the law, but under grace." Rom 7:2: Bound by the law. Paul seems to be referring to the law described in Deut 24:1. Rom 7:4: Wherefore ... ye also. The phrasing here draws a comparison between Jewish law as it pertains to a woman whose husband as died. However, this should not be read strictly as an analogy. That is, there are themes from this example that Paul will employ in discussing law—namely, the ideas of law, death, and union (old and new)—however, trying to make one-to-one identification mappings between, say, the first husband and the law, seem to be strained, going beyond Paul's purpose. Rom 7:5: Which were by the law. Although this is a fairly literal translation of the Greek, most modern translations amend this so it makes more sense. Several translations (e.g. NRSV, NASB, NET, NIV, NKJV) add the word "arouse" to make more sense of the phrase. For example, the NRSV for this verse is: "While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death" (emphasis added). In this sense, perhaps the "sinful passions" (NRSV) or "motions of sins" (KJV) are "by the law" because the law, in prohibiting a certain act, makes that very act more attractive. That is, in the very act of prohibiting an act, attention is drawn to that act. However, it should be noted, that although several modern translations seem to take this approach, this is only one of several possible interpretive directions to take. James D. G. Dunn, for example, in his Word Biblical Commentary volume on Romans 1-8, translates this verse as: "For when we were in the flesh the sinful passions which operate through the law were effective in what we are and do so as to bear fruit for death." Here, the phrase "the sinful passions which operate through the law" seems truer to the ambiguity in the Greek in that it allows for this "operat[ion]" of sin through (or by) the law to function in many possible ways, either by arousing interest in sin, or by some other way (Dunn seems to take this in terms of the law acting through us, tying in, perhaps, to the notion of serving the law of sin rather than the law of God; cf. Rom 7:6; Rom 7:25). I would also cite 2 Nephi 2:13(11-13) which suggests a different reading of Romans 7:5 than that suggested by the other authors cited. I further think the larger context also agreeable to this meaning. That is, that sin, being an act of breaking the law, can only exist in a context where there is law. Therefore, if there was no law, then there would be no sin and it can justly be said that sin takes its existence from the law and is therefore enabled to work in us because of the law. So, I would then read Romans 7:5 as being an extension of the act played out in the garden of eden. Man became mortal because of transgression and that transgression still works in us unto death, but not just this "original" sin, but also the suggestion seems to remain that other sins that we commit ourselves contribute to this decay. A question in my mind is that if the simple transgression of Adam and Eve still works within us to make us mortal, to produce a temporal decay, then can the sins of our other progenitors have also contributed to this decay? Not having read the authors cited, perhaps the do take up some of these ideas. Any thoughts? I was wondering the same thing regarding 2 Ne 2. As my jumbled notes on this probably make obvious, I'm not very clear on what "typical" Bible scholars think about this passage (and whole chapter), let alone how a Mormon reading might differ. My plan is to try and study what Bible scholars think about this chapter, then think how 2 Ne 2 might influence how we read this chapter, and finally take up the intriguing JST on this passage. Actually, I think the subsequent verses will help us think about what Paul is up to here, but I haven't really made sense of them yet for myself yet. Onward ho.... --RobertC 19:00, 24 August 2007 (CEST) Rom 7:6. It seems that Paul's purpose in employing this marriage analogy (vv. 1-6) is to argue that the law's grasp does not extend beyond death. In light of the "baptized into [Christ's] death" (Rom 6:3) theme in chapter 6, the idea seems to be that in baptism, the Christian is "delivered from the law" ("discharged from the law" in the NRSV; in Greek, the same verb is used here, katargeo, as in verse 2 to describe the way in which a woman whose husband dies is "loosed from the law"). Rom 7:9. Before we hear the gospel, before we have the law, we are alive, sinless. When the law comes, we die. Here we have a possible explanation for why "gentiles" sometimes seem to weather the consequences of sin better than saints. Pornography is the perfect example. Statistics seem to indicate that rates of addiction are higher in Mormon areas. Undoubtedly, these addictions take a much higher toll than they do for "gentiles." The reason is simple. Where there is a law, there is spiritual death, and all the consequences of that death. Although I believe that even for "gentiles" there are consequences to certain actions that we as Mormons call "sins," these consequences do not include spiritual death on the same level we as LDS members experience. Rom 7:15-25: JST. Verses 15-25 take on a clearer and less awkward meaning in JST (passages not noted in LDS Edition. See The New Testament with the Joseph Smith Translation by Steven and Julie Hite or the edition by Wayment. Rom 7:20. Is Paul advocating personal responsibility away from us by noting our helplessness in the face of the power of sin upon us? In a way, yes, but in a way, no. We don't have to feel so guilty if our flesh is full of lusts, for that is it's natural state. "The natural man is an enemy to God" as King Benjamin said. Paul says nothing good comes from the flesh, which may be only his personal opinion based on his own demons, (i.e. his thorn in the flesh). But it is true that the flesh is an unruly member, no matter how deep our spiritual commitment to the commandments. It is only through Christ that we can hope to achieve freedom through forgiveness. Rom 8:13. This is similar to Christ's idea: "He that findeth his life shall lose it, and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Matthew 10:39 Rom 8:33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?. A beautiful scripture on the pointlessness of criticism and passing judgement on those who have been called and chosen. Sure they may not always be perfect, but when they have already been saved by Christ who made intercession for them, who are we to ever pass judgement upon them? Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 7:18. In the flesh dwelleth no good thing. Paul's attitudes about the flesh are unique among biblical and latter day authors. In our day, the "flesh" is not seen as so perverse. The "flesh" nature of deity is continually asserted, as is the divine nature of the physical intimacy within marriage. Having a "body" is seen as one of the greatest things a spirit can ever attain. So why is the flesh so continually vilified by Paul? Rom 8:20. Who his the "him" in the phrase "him who hath subjected the same"? God? Adam? Someone else? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 8:11-15. For a poetic exploration of a pagan's conversion, see User: Joe Spencer/grace. Rom 8:16-17. Keith R. Edwards, "That They Might Know Thee," Ensign, Nov 2006, pp. 99–101. Elder Edwards said: "Paul wrote that our suffering may give us an opportunity to know the Savior better... Now, lest anyone go looking for hardship and suffering, that is not what is taught. Rather, it is the attitude with which we approach our hardships and trials that allows us to know the Savior better." Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11

Rom 7:6-10

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 5-8 Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 5:2. With the free gift of God's grace,we are invited to rejoice in our salvation. Yet do we need to do anything more? Yes: to glory in tribulation which leads to patience and hope. This could be seen as Paul's version of the "first principles and ordinances of the gospel." First, faith, second suffering through tribulation, third patience or endurance, and fourth hope. Through the process, we finally arrive at the Holy Ghost, just as we do in Joseph Smith's first principles and ordinances. Rom 5:5: Shed abroad. The Greek word ekcheo ("shed abroad") is also used in the sense of "pouring" in the LXX in Num 19:17 and Ex 30:18 in a purification rite. This is also the word used in Matt 26:28 to describe Christ's blood being shed for the sins of others, the same phrasing we find in our sacrament prayers. See also Matt 23:35; Acts 22:20; Rev 16:6. Rom 5:8: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Here Paul notes that Christ suffers for sinners, not saints, or the righteous. "None are rightious" he had said previously. In a sense, Christ is most often with us when we are sinners, suffering and silently enduring with us. Although as Saints, we may feel his presence, yet he is also very present in the life of the sinner, gently trying to mould the life in a way that might promote some kind of healing. But even if not, he is always there, suffering all things with the sinner. Rom 5:13: Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Some believe that the heathen will go to hell. However, Paul clearly states that sin is never imputed unto those without the law. Some might argue, but the Fall of Adam makes all men sinful. Not according to this scripture. Without the law, there is no sin, no condemnation, and thus, no hell. Only mortal death is imputed from the Fall. But spiritual death comes only from our own sins, in the presence of a known law. Paul says even of himself, in Rom 7:9, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Paul was scott free, sinless, alive, and uncondemned before he knew the law. Then when he heard the law, he died. Rom 6:22: Everlasting. The same Greek word (aionios) that is translated as "everlasting" in verse 22 is translated as "eternal" in verse 23. Rom 6:21-23. In these verses Paul wraps up a lengthy argument in which he encourages followers of Christ to become obedient to righteousness. Apparently, there were some Christians who felt that because of grace that it didn't matter what they did with their lives. But Paul unequivocally rejects this idea in verse 15. In the end, he says in verses 21-23, we have two choices: death (verse 21 and 23) that comes from doing iniquity, or holiness (sanctification and purity) with the result of eternal life (verses 22 and 23). Rom 7:1. Compare the usage of this word in Rom 5:21; Rom 6:9; Rom 6:14. Note esp. Rom 6:14 since it seems this chapter is will be taking up the question of what it means to be "not under the law, but under grace." Rom 7:2: Bound by the law. Paul seems to be referring to the law described in Deut 24:1. Rom 7:4: Wherefore ... ye also. The phrasing here draws a comparison between Jewish law as it pertains to a woman whose husband as died. However, this should not be read strictly as an analogy. That is, there are themes from this example that Paul will employ in discussing law—namely, the ideas of law, death, and union (old and new)—however, trying to make one-to-one identification mappings between, say, the first husband and the law, seem to be strained, going beyond Paul's purpose. Rom 7:5: Which were by the law. Although this is a fairly literal translation of the Greek, most modern translations amend this so it makes more sense. Several translations (e.g. NRSV, NASB, NET, NIV, NKJV) add the word "arouse" to make more sense of the phrase. For example, the NRSV for this verse is: "While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death" (emphasis added). In this sense, perhaps the "sinful passions" (NRSV) or "motions of sins" (KJV) are "by the law" because the law, in prohibiting a certain act, makes that very act more attractive. That is, in the very act of prohibiting an act, attention is drawn to that act. However, it should be noted, that although several modern translations seem to take this approach, this is only one of several possible interpretive directions to take. James D. G. Dunn, for example, in his Word Biblical Commentary volume on Romans 1-8, translates this verse as: "For when we were in the flesh the sinful passions which operate through the law were effective in what we are and do so as to bear fruit for death." Here, the phrase "the sinful passions which operate through the law" seems truer to the ambiguity in the Greek in that it allows for this "operat[ion]" of sin through (or by) the law to function in many possible ways, either by arousing interest in sin, or by some other way (Dunn seems to take this in terms of the law acting through us, tying in, perhaps, to the notion of serving the law of sin rather than the law of God; cf. Rom 7:6; Rom 7:25). I would also cite 2 Nephi 2:13(11-13) which suggests a different reading of Romans 7:5 than that suggested by the other authors cited. I further think the larger context also agreeable to this meaning. That is, that sin, being an act of breaking the law, can only exist in a context where there is law. Therefore, if there was no law, then there would be no sin and it can justly be said that sin takes its existence from the law and is therefore enabled to work in us because of the law. So, I would then read Romans 7:5 as being an extension of the act played out in the garden of eden. Man became mortal because of transgression and that transgression still works in us unto death, but not just this "original" sin, but also the suggestion seems to remain that other sins that we commit ourselves contribute to this decay. A question in my mind is that if the simple transgression of Adam and Eve still works within us to make us mortal, to produce a temporal decay, then can the sins of our other progenitors have also contributed to this decay? Not having read the authors cited, perhaps the do take up some of these ideas. Any thoughts? I was wondering the same thing regarding 2 Ne 2. As my jumbled notes on this probably make obvious, I'm not very clear on what "typical" Bible scholars think about this passage (and whole chapter), let alone how a Mormon reading might differ. My plan is to try and study what Bible scholars think about this chapter, then think how 2 Ne 2 might influence how we read this chapter, and finally take up the intriguing JST on this passage. Actually, I think the subsequent verses will help us think about what Paul is up to here, but I haven't really made sense of them yet for myself yet. Onward ho.... --RobertC 19:00, 24 August 2007 (CEST) Rom 7:6. It seems that Paul's purpose in employing this marriage analogy (vv. 1-6) is to argue that the law's grasp does not extend beyond death. In light of the "baptized into [Christ's] death" (Rom 6:3) theme in chapter 6, the idea seems to be that in baptism, the Christian is "delivered from the law" ("discharged from the law" in the NRSV; in Greek, the same verb is used here, katargeo, as in verse 2 to describe the way in which a woman whose husband dies is "loosed from the law"). Rom 7:9. Before we hear the gospel, before we have the law, we are alive, sinless. When the law comes, we die. Here we have a possible explanation for why "gentiles" sometimes seem to weather the consequences of sin better than saints. Pornography is the perfect example. Statistics seem to indicate that rates of addiction are higher in Mormon areas. Undoubtedly, these addictions take a much higher toll than they do for "gentiles." The reason is simple. Where there is a law, there is spiritual death, and all the consequences of that death. Although I believe that even for "gentiles" there are consequences to certain actions that we as Mormons call "sins," these consequences do not include spiritual death on the same level we as LDS members experience. Rom 7:15-25: JST. Verses 15-25 take on a clearer and less awkward meaning in JST (passages not noted in LDS Edition. See The New Testament with the Joseph Smith Translation by Steven and Julie Hite or the edition by Wayment. Rom 7:20. Is Paul advocating personal responsibility away from us by noting our helplessness in the face of the power of sin upon us? In a way, yes, but in a way, no. We don't have to feel so guilty if our flesh is full of lusts, for that is it's natural state. "The natural man is an enemy to God" as King Benjamin said. Paul says nothing good comes from the flesh, which may be only his personal opinion based on his own demons, (i.e. his thorn in the flesh). But it is true that the flesh is an unruly member, no matter how deep our spiritual commitment to the commandments. It is only through Christ that we can hope to achieve freedom through forgiveness. Rom 8:13. This is similar to Christ's idea: "He that findeth his life shall lose it, and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Matthew 10:39 Rom 8:33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?. A beautiful scripture on the pointlessness of criticism and passing judgement on those who have been called and chosen. Sure they may not always be perfect, but when they have already been saved by Christ who made intercession for them, who are we to ever pass judgement upon them? Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 7:18. In the flesh dwelleth no good thing. Paul's attitudes about the flesh are unique among biblical and latter day authors. In our day, the "flesh" is not seen as so perverse. The "flesh" nature of deity is continually asserted, as is the divine nature of the physical intimacy within marriage. Having a "body" is seen as one of the greatest things a spirit can ever attain. So why is the flesh so continually vilified by Paul? Rom 8:20. Who his the "him" in the phrase "him who hath subjected the same"? God? Adam? Someone else? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 8:11-15. For a poetic exploration of a pagan's conversion, see User: Joe Spencer/grace. Rom 8:16-17. Keith R. Edwards, "That They Might Know Thee," Ensign, Nov 2006, pp. 99–101. Elder Edwards said: "Paul wrote that our suffering may give us an opportunity to know the Savior better... Now, lest anyone go looking for hardship and suffering, that is not what is taught. Rather, it is the attitude with which we approach our hardships and trials that allows us to know the Savior better." Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11

Rom 7:11-15

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 5-8 Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 5:2. With the free gift of God's grace,we are invited to rejoice in our salvation. Yet do we need to do anything more? Yes: to glory in tribulation which leads to patience and hope. This could be seen as Paul's version of the "first principles and ordinances of the gospel." First, faith, second suffering through tribulation, third patience or endurance, and fourth hope. Through the process, we finally arrive at the Holy Ghost, just as we do in Joseph Smith's first principles and ordinances. Rom 5:5: Shed abroad. The Greek word ekcheo ("shed abroad") is also used in the sense of "pouring" in the LXX in Num 19:17 and Ex 30:18 in a purification rite. This is also the word used in Matt 26:28 to describe Christ's blood being shed for the sins of others, the same phrasing we find in our sacrament prayers. See also Matt 23:35; Acts 22:20; Rev 16:6. Rom 5:8: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Here Paul notes that Christ suffers for sinners, not saints, or the righteous. "None are rightious" he had said previously. In a sense, Christ is most often with us when we are sinners, suffering and silently enduring with us. Although as Saints, we may feel his presence, yet he is also very present in the life of the sinner, gently trying to mould the life in a way that might promote some kind of healing. But even if not, he is always there, suffering all things with the sinner. Rom 5:13: Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Some believe that the heathen will go to hell. However, Paul clearly states that sin is never imputed unto those without the law. Some might argue, but the Fall of Adam makes all men sinful. Not according to this scripture. Without the law, there is no sin, no condemnation, and thus, no hell. Only mortal death is imputed from the Fall. But spiritual death comes only from our own sins, in the presence of a known law. Paul says even of himself, in Rom 7:9, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Paul was scott free, sinless, alive, and uncondemned before he knew the law. Then when he heard the law, he died. Rom 6:22: Everlasting. The same Greek word (aionios) that is translated as "everlasting" in verse 22 is translated as "eternal" in verse 23. Rom 6:21-23. In these verses Paul wraps up a lengthy argument in which he encourages followers of Christ to become obedient to righteousness. Apparently, there were some Christians who felt that because of grace that it didn't matter what they did with their lives. But Paul unequivocally rejects this idea in verse 15. In the end, he says in verses 21-23, we have two choices: death (verse 21 and 23) that comes from doing iniquity, or holiness (sanctification and purity) with the result of eternal life (verses 22 and 23). Rom 7:1. Compare the usage of this word in Rom 5:21; Rom 6:9; Rom 6:14. Note esp. Rom 6:14 since it seems this chapter is will be taking up the question of what it means to be "not under the law, but under grace." Rom 7:2: Bound by the law. Paul seems to be referring to the law described in Deut 24:1. Rom 7:4: Wherefore ... ye also. The phrasing here draws a comparison between Jewish law as it pertains to a woman whose husband as died. However, this should not be read strictly as an analogy. That is, there are themes from this example that Paul will employ in discussing law—namely, the ideas of law, death, and union (old and new)—however, trying to make one-to-one identification mappings between, say, the first husband and the law, seem to be strained, going beyond Paul's purpose. Rom 7:5: Which were by the law. Although this is a fairly literal translation of the Greek, most modern translations amend this so it makes more sense. Several translations (e.g. NRSV, NASB, NET, NIV, NKJV) add the word "arouse" to make more sense of the phrase. For example, the NRSV for this verse is: "While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death" (emphasis added). In this sense, perhaps the "sinful passions" (NRSV) or "motions of sins" (KJV) are "by the law" because the law, in prohibiting a certain act, makes that very act more attractive. That is, in the very act of prohibiting an act, attention is drawn to that act. However, it should be noted, that although several modern translations seem to take this approach, this is only one of several possible interpretive directions to take. James D. G. Dunn, for example, in his Word Biblical Commentary volume on Romans 1-8, translates this verse as: "For when we were in the flesh the sinful passions which operate through the law were effective in what we are and do so as to bear fruit for death." Here, the phrase "the sinful passions which operate through the law" seems truer to the ambiguity in the Greek in that it allows for this "operat[ion]" of sin through (or by) the law to function in many possible ways, either by arousing interest in sin, or by some other way (Dunn seems to take this in terms of the law acting through us, tying in, perhaps, to the notion of serving the law of sin rather than the law of God; cf. Rom 7:6; Rom 7:25). I would also cite 2 Nephi 2:13(11-13) which suggests a different reading of Romans 7:5 than that suggested by the other authors cited. I further think the larger context also agreeable to this meaning. That is, that sin, being an act of breaking the law, can only exist in a context where there is law. Therefore, if there was no law, then there would be no sin and it can justly be said that sin takes its existence from the law and is therefore enabled to work in us because of the law. So, I would then read Romans 7:5 as being an extension of the act played out in the garden of eden. Man became mortal because of transgression and that transgression still works in us unto death, but not just this "original" sin, but also the suggestion seems to remain that other sins that we commit ourselves contribute to this decay. A question in my mind is that if the simple transgression of Adam and Eve still works within us to make us mortal, to produce a temporal decay, then can the sins of our other progenitors have also contributed to this decay? Not having read the authors cited, perhaps the do take up some of these ideas. Any thoughts? I was wondering the same thing regarding 2 Ne 2. As my jumbled notes on this probably make obvious, I'm not very clear on what "typical" Bible scholars think about this passage (and whole chapter), let alone how a Mormon reading might differ. My plan is to try and study what Bible scholars think about this chapter, then think how 2 Ne 2 might influence how we read this chapter, and finally take up the intriguing JST on this passage. Actually, I think the subsequent verses will help us think about what Paul is up to here, but I haven't really made sense of them yet for myself yet. Onward ho.... --RobertC 19:00, 24 August 2007 (CEST) Rom 7:6. It seems that Paul's purpose in employing this marriage analogy (vv. 1-6) is to argue that the law's grasp does not extend beyond death. In light of the "baptized into [Christ's] death" (Rom 6:3) theme in chapter 6, the idea seems to be that in baptism, the Christian is "delivered from the law" ("discharged from the law" in the NRSV; in Greek, the same verb is used here, katargeo, as in verse 2 to describe the way in which a woman whose husband dies is "loosed from the law"). Rom 7:9. Before we hear the gospel, before we have the law, we are alive, sinless. When the law comes, we die. Here we have a possible explanation for why "gentiles" sometimes seem to weather the consequences of sin better than saints. Pornography is the perfect example. Statistics seem to indicate that rates of addiction are higher in Mormon areas. Undoubtedly, these addictions take a much higher toll than they do for "gentiles." The reason is simple. Where there is a law, there is spiritual death, and all the consequences of that death. Although I believe that even for "gentiles" there are consequences to certain actions that we as Mormons call "sins," these consequences do not include spiritual death on the same level we as LDS members experience. Rom 7:15-25: JST. Verses 15-25 take on a clearer and less awkward meaning in JST (passages not noted in LDS Edition. See The New Testament with the Joseph Smith Translation by Steven and Julie Hite or the edition by Wayment. Rom 7:20. Is Paul advocating personal responsibility away from us by noting our helplessness in the face of the power of sin upon us? In a way, yes, but in a way, no. We don't have to feel so guilty if our flesh is full of lusts, for that is it's natural state. "The natural man is an enemy to God" as King Benjamin said. Paul says nothing good comes from the flesh, which may be only his personal opinion based on his own demons, (i.e. his thorn in the flesh). But it is true that the flesh is an unruly member, no matter how deep our spiritual commitment to the commandments. It is only through Christ that we can hope to achieve freedom through forgiveness. Rom 8:13. This is similar to Christ's idea: "He that findeth his life shall lose it, and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Matthew 10:39 Rom 8:33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?. A beautiful scripture on the pointlessness of criticism and passing judgement on those who have been called and chosen. Sure they may not always be perfect, but when they have already been saved by Christ who made intercession for them, who are we to ever pass judgement upon them? Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 7:18. In the flesh dwelleth no good thing. Paul's attitudes about the flesh are unique among biblical and latter day authors. In our day, the "flesh" is not seen as so perverse. The "flesh" nature of deity is continually asserted, as is the divine nature of the physical intimacy within marriage. Having a "body" is seen as one of the greatest things a spirit can ever attain. So why is the flesh so continually vilified by Paul? Rom 8:20. Who his the "him" in the phrase "him who hath subjected the same"? God? Adam? Someone else? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 8:11-15. For a poetic exploration of a pagan's conversion, see User: Joe Spencer/grace. Rom 8:16-17. Keith R. Edwards, "That They Might Know Thee," Ensign, Nov 2006, pp. 99–101. Elder Edwards said: "Paul wrote that our suffering may give us an opportunity to know the Savior better... Now, lest anyone go looking for hardship and suffering, that is not what is taught. Rather, it is the attitude with which we approach our hardships and trials that allows us to know the Savior better." Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11

Rom 7:16-20

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 5-8 Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 5:2. With the free gift of God's grace,we are invited to rejoice in our salvation. Yet do we need to do anything more? Yes: to glory in tribulation which leads to patience and hope. This could be seen as Paul's version of the "first principles and ordinances of the gospel." First, faith, second suffering through tribulation, third patience or endurance, and fourth hope. Through the process, we finally arrive at the Holy Ghost, just as we do in Joseph Smith's first principles and ordinances. Rom 5:5: Shed abroad. The Greek word ekcheo ("shed abroad") is also used in the sense of "pouring" in the LXX in Num 19:17 and Ex 30:18 in a purification rite. This is also the word used in Matt 26:28 to describe Christ's blood being shed for the sins of others, the same phrasing we find in our sacrament prayers. See also Matt 23:35; Acts 22:20; Rev 16:6. Rom 5:8: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Here Paul notes that Christ suffers for sinners, not saints, or the righteous. "None are rightious" he had said previously. In a sense, Christ is most often with us when we are sinners, suffering and silently enduring with us. Although as Saints, we may feel his presence, yet he is also very present in the life of the sinner, gently trying to mould the life in a way that might promote some kind of healing. But even if not, he is always there, suffering all things with the sinner. Rom 5:13: Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Some believe that the heathen will go to hell. However, Paul clearly states that sin is never imputed unto those without the law. Some might argue, but the Fall of Adam makes all men sinful. Not according to this scripture. Without the law, there is no sin, no condemnation, and thus, no hell. Only mortal death is imputed from the Fall. But spiritual death comes only from our own sins, in the presence of a known law. Paul says even of himself, in Rom 7:9, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Paul was scott free, sinless, alive, and uncondemned before he knew the law. Then when he heard the law, he died. Rom 6:22: Everlasting. The same Greek word (aionios) that is translated as "everlasting" in verse 22 is translated as "eternal" in verse 23. Rom 6:21-23. In these verses Paul wraps up a lengthy argument in which he encourages followers of Christ to become obedient to righteousness. Apparently, there were some Christians who felt that because of grace that it didn't matter what they did with their lives. But Paul unequivocally rejects this idea in verse 15. In the end, he says in verses 21-23, we have two choices: death (verse 21 and 23) that comes from doing iniquity, or holiness (sanctification and purity) with the result of eternal life (verses 22 and 23). Rom 7:1. Compare the usage of this word in Rom 5:21; Rom 6:9; Rom 6:14. Note esp. Rom 6:14 since it seems this chapter is will be taking up the question of what it means to be "not under the law, but under grace." Rom 7:2: Bound by the law. Paul seems to be referring to the law described in Deut 24:1. Rom 7:4: Wherefore ... ye also. The phrasing here draws a comparison between Jewish law as it pertains to a woman whose husband as died. However, this should not be read strictly as an analogy. That is, there are themes from this example that Paul will employ in discussing law—namely, the ideas of law, death, and union (old and new)—however, trying to make one-to-one identification mappings between, say, the first husband and the law, seem to be strained, going beyond Paul's purpose. Rom 7:5: Which were by the law. Although this is a fairly literal translation of the Greek, most modern translations amend this so it makes more sense. Several translations (e.g. NRSV, NASB, NET, NIV, NKJV) add the word "arouse" to make more sense of the phrase. For example, the NRSV for this verse is: "While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death" (emphasis added). In this sense, perhaps the "sinful passions" (NRSV) or "motions of sins" (KJV) are "by the law" because the law, in prohibiting a certain act, makes that very act more attractive. That is, in the very act of prohibiting an act, attention is drawn to that act. However, it should be noted, that although several modern translations seem to take this approach, this is only one of several possible interpretive directions to take. James D. G. Dunn, for example, in his Word Biblical Commentary volume on Romans 1-8, translates this verse as: "For when we were in the flesh the sinful passions which operate through the law were effective in what we are and do so as to bear fruit for death." Here, the phrase "the sinful passions which operate through the law" seems truer to the ambiguity in the Greek in that it allows for this "operat[ion]" of sin through (or by) the law to function in many possible ways, either by arousing interest in sin, or by some other way (Dunn seems to take this in terms of the law acting through us, tying in, perhaps, to the notion of serving the law of sin rather than the law of God; cf. Rom 7:6; Rom 7:25). I would also cite 2 Nephi 2:13(11-13) which suggests a different reading of Romans 7:5 than that suggested by the other authors cited. I further think the larger context also agreeable to this meaning. That is, that sin, being an act of breaking the law, can only exist in a context where there is law. Therefore, if there was no law, then there would be no sin and it can justly be said that sin takes its existence from the law and is therefore enabled to work in us because of the law. So, I would then read Romans 7:5 as being an extension of the act played out in the garden of eden. Man became mortal because of transgression and that transgression still works in us unto death, but not just this "original" sin, but also the suggestion seems to remain that other sins that we commit ourselves contribute to this decay. A question in my mind is that if the simple transgression of Adam and Eve still works within us to make us mortal, to produce a temporal decay, then can the sins of our other progenitors have also contributed to this decay? Not having read the authors cited, perhaps the do take up some of these ideas. Any thoughts? I was wondering the same thing regarding 2 Ne 2. As my jumbled notes on this probably make obvious, I'm not very clear on what "typical" Bible scholars think about this passage (and whole chapter), let alone how a Mormon reading might differ. My plan is to try and study what Bible scholars think about this chapter, then think how 2 Ne 2 might influence how we read this chapter, and finally take up the intriguing JST on this passage. Actually, I think the subsequent verses will help us think about what Paul is up to here, but I haven't really made sense of them yet for myself yet. Onward ho.... --RobertC 19:00, 24 August 2007 (CEST) Rom 7:6. It seems that Paul's purpose in employing this marriage analogy (vv. 1-6) is to argue that the law's grasp does not extend beyond death. In light of the "baptized into [Christ's] death" (Rom 6:3) theme in chapter 6, the idea seems to be that in baptism, the Christian is "delivered from the law" ("discharged from the law" in the NRSV; in Greek, the same verb is used here, katargeo, as in verse 2 to describe the way in which a woman whose husband dies is "loosed from the law"). Rom 7:9. Before we hear the gospel, before we have the law, we are alive, sinless. When the law comes, we die. Here we have a possible explanation for why "gentiles" sometimes seem to weather the consequences of sin better than saints. Pornography is the perfect example. Statistics seem to indicate that rates of addiction are higher in Mormon areas. Undoubtedly, these addictions take a much higher toll than they do for "gentiles." The reason is simple. Where there is a law, there is spiritual death, and all the consequences of that death. Although I believe that even for "gentiles" there are consequences to certain actions that we as Mormons call "sins," these consequences do not include spiritual death on the same level we as LDS members experience. Rom 7:15-25: JST. Verses 15-25 take on a clearer and less awkward meaning in JST (passages not noted in LDS Edition. See The New Testament with the Joseph Smith Translation by Steven and Julie Hite or the edition by Wayment. Rom 7:20. Is Paul advocating personal responsibility away from us by noting our helplessness in the face of the power of sin upon us? In a way, yes, but in a way, no. We don't have to feel so guilty if our flesh is full of lusts, for that is it's natural state. "The natural man is an enemy to God" as King Benjamin said. Paul says nothing good comes from the flesh, which may be only his personal opinion based on his own demons, (i.e. his thorn in the flesh). But it is true that the flesh is an unruly member, no matter how deep our spiritual commitment to the commandments. It is only through Christ that we can hope to achieve freedom through forgiveness. Rom 8:13. This is similar to Christ's idea: "He that findeth his life shall lose it, and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Matthew 10:39 Rom 8:33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?. A beautiful scripture on the pointlessness of criticism and passing judgement on those who have been called and chosen. Sure they may not always be perfect, but when they have already been saved by Christ who made intercession for them, who are we to ever pass judgement upon them? Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 7:18. In the flesh dwelleth no good thing. Paul's attitudes about the flesh are unique among biblical and latter day authors. In our day, the "flesh" is not seen as so perverse. The "flesh" nature of deity is continually asserted, as is the divine nature of the physical intimacy within marriage. Having a "body" is seen as one of the greatest things a spirit can ever attain. So why is the flesh so continually vilified by Paul? Rom 8:20. Who his the "him" in the phrase "him who hath subjected the same"? God? Adam? Someone else? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 8:11-15. For a poetic exploration of a pagan's conversion, see User: Joe Spencer/grace. Rom 8:16-17. Keith R. Edwards, "That They Might Know Thee," Ensign, Nov 2006, pp. 99–101. Elder Edwards said: "Paul wrote that our suffering may give us an opportunity to know the Savior better... Now, lest anyone go looking for hardship and suffering, that is not what is taught. Rather, it is the attitude with which we approach our hardships and trials that allows us to know the Savior better." Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11

Rom 7:21-25

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 5-8 Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 5:2. With the free gift of God's grace,we are invited to rejoice in our salvation. Yet do we need to do anything more? Yes: to glory in tribulation which leads to patience and hope. This could be seen as Paul's version of the "first principles and ordinances of the gospel." First, faith, second suffering through tribulation, third patience or endurance, and fourth hope. Through the process, we finally arrive at the Holy Ghost, just as we do in Joseph Smith's first principles and ordinances. Rom 5:5: Shed abroad. The Greek word ekcheo ("shed abroad") is also used in the sense of "pouring" in the LXX in Num 19:17 and Ex 30:18 in a purification rite. This is also the word used in Matt 26:28 to describe Christ's blood being shed for the sins of others, the same phrasing we find in our sacrament prayers. See also Matt 23:35; Acts 22:20; Rev 16:6. Rom 5:8: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Here Paul notes that Christ suffers for sinners, not saints, or the righteous. "None are rightious" he had said previously. In a sense, Christ is most often with us when we are sinners, suffering and silently enduring with us. Although as Saints, we may feel his presence, yet he is also very present in the life of the sinner, gently trying to mould the life in a way that might promote some kind of healing. But even if not, he is always there, suffering all things with the sinner. Rom 5:13: Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Some believe that the heathen will go to hell. However, Paul clearly states that sin is never imputed unto those without the law. Some might argue, but the Fall of Adam makes all men sinful. Not according to this scripture. Without the law, there is no sin, no condemnation, and thus, no hell. Only mortal death is imputed from the Fall. But spiritual death comes only from our own sins, in the presence of a known law. Paul says even of himself, in Rom 7:9, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Paul was scott free, sinless, alive, and uncondemned before he knew the law. Then when he heard the law, he died. Rom 6:22: Everlasting. The same Greek word (aionios) that is translated as "everlasting" in verse 22 is translated as "eternal" in verse 23. Rom 6:21-23. In these verses Paul wraps up a lengthy argument in which he encourages followers of Christ to become obedient to righteousness. Apparently, there were some Christians who felt that because of grace that it didn't matter what they did with their lives. But Paul unequivocally rejects this idea in verse 15. In the end, he says in verses 21-23, we have two choices: death (verse 21 and 23) that comes from doing iniquity, or holiness (sanctification and purity) with the result of eternal life (verses 22 and 23). Rom 7:1. Compare the usage of this word in Rom 5:21; Rom 6:9; Rom 6:14. Note esp. Rom 6:14 since it seems this chapter is will be taking up the question of what it means to be "not under the law, but under grace." Rom 7:2: Bound by the law. Paul seems to be referring to the law described in Deut 24:1. Rom 7:4: Wherefore ... ye also. The phrasing here draws a comparison between Jewish law as it pertains to a woman whose husband as died. However, this should not be read strictly as an analogy. That is, there are themes from this example that Paul will employ in discussing law—namely, the ideas of law, death, and union (old and new)—however, trying to make one-to-one identification mappings between, say, the first husband and the law, seem to be strained, going beyond Paul's purpose. Rom 7:5: Which were by the law. Although this is a fairly literal translation of the Greek, most modern translations amend this so it makes more sense. Several translations (e.g. NRSV, NASB, NET, NIV, NKJV) add the word "arouse" to make more sense of the phrase. For example, the NRSV for this verse is: "While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death" (emphasis added). In this sense, perhaps the "sinful passions" (NRSV) or "motions of sins" (KJV) are "by the law" because the law, in prohibiting a certain act, makes that very act more attractive. That is, in the very act of prohibiting an act, attention is drawn to that act. However, it should be noted, that although several modern translations seem to take this approach, this is only one of several possible interpretive directions to take. James D. G. Dunn, for example, in his Word Biblical Commentary volume on Romans 1-8, translates this verse as: "For when we were in the flesh the sinful passions which operate through the law were effective in what we are and do so as to bear fruit for death." Here, the phrase "the sinful passions which operate through the law" seems truer to the ambiguity in the Greek in that it allows for this "operat[ion]" of sin through (or by) the law to function in many possible ways, either by arousing interest in sin, or by some other way (Dunn seems to take this in terms of the law acting through us, tying in, perhaps, to the notion of serving the law of sin rather than the law of God; cf. Rom 7:6; Rom 7:25). I would also cite 2 Nephi 2:13(11-13) which suggests a different reading of Romans 7:5 than that suggested by the other authors cited. I further think the larger context also agreeable to this meaning. That is, that sin, being an act of breaking the law, can only exist in a context where there is law. Therefore, if there was no law, then there would be no sin and it can justly be said that sin takes its existence from the law and is therefore enabled to work in us because of the law. So, I would then read Romans 7:5 as being an extension of the act played out in the garden of eden. Man became mortal because of transgression and that transgression still works in us unto death, but not just this "original" sin, but also the suggestion seems to remain that other sins that we commit ourselves contribute to this decay. A question in my mind is that if the simple transgression of Adam and Eve still works within us to make us mortal, to produce a temporal decay, then can the sins of our other progenitors have also contributed to this decay? Not having read the authors cited, perhaps the do take up some of these ideas. Any thoughts? I was wondering the same thing regarding 2 Ne 2. As my jumbled notes on this probably make obvious, I'm not very clear on what "typical" Bible scholars think about this passage (and whole chapter), let alone how a Mormon reading might differ. My plan is to try and study what Bible scholars think about this chapter, then think how 2 Ne 2 might influence how we read this chapter, and finally take up the intriguing JST on this passage. Actually, I think the subsequent verses will help us think about what Paul is up to here, but I haven't really made sense of them yet for myself yet. Onward ho.... --RobertC 19:00, 24 August 2007 (CEST) Rom 7:6. It seems that Paul's purpose in employing this marriage analogy (vv. 1-6) is to argue that the law's grasp does not extend beyond death. In light of the "baptized into [Christ's] death" (Rom 6:3) theme in chapter 6, the idea seems to be that in baptism, the Christian is "delivered from the law" ("discharged from the law" in the NRSV; in Greek, the same verb is used here, katargeo, as in verse 2 to describe the way in which a woman whose husband dies is "loosed from the law"). Rom 7:9. Before we hear the gospel, before we have the law, we are alive, sinless. When the law comes, we die. Here we have a possible explanation for why "gentiles" sometimes seem to weather the consequences of sin better than saints. Pornography is the perfect example. Statistics seem to indicate that rates of addiction are higher in Mormon areas. Undoubtedly, these addictions take a much higher toll than they do for "gentiles." The reason is simple. Where there is a law, there is spiritual death, and all the consequences of that death. Although I believe that even for "gentiles" there are consequences to certain actions that we as Mormons call "sins," these consequences do not include spiritual death on the same level we as LDS members experience. Rom 7:15-25: JST. Verses 15-25 take on a clearer and less awkward meaning in JST (passages not noted in LDS Edition. See The New Testament with the Joseph Smith Translation by Steven and Julie Hite or the edition by Wayment. Rom 7:20. Is Paul advocating personal responsibility away from us by noting our helplessness in the face of the power of sin upon us? In a way, yes, but in a way, no. We don't have to feel so guilty if our flesh is full of lusts, for that is it's natural state. "The natural man is an enemy to God" as King Benjamin said. Paul says nothing good comes from the flesh, which may be only his personal opinion based on his own demons, (i.e. his thorn in the flesh). But it is true that the flesh is an unruly member, no matter how deep our spiritual commitment to the commandments. It is only through Christ that we can hope to achieve freedom through forgiveness. Rom 8:13. This is similar to Christ's idea: "He that findeth his life shall lose it, and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Matthew 10:39 Rom 8:33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?. A beautiful scripture on the pointlessness of criticism and passing judgement on those who have been called and chosen. Sure they may not always be perfect, but when they have already been saved by Christ who made intercession for them, who are we to ever pass judgement upon them? Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 7:18. In the flesh dwelleth no good thing. Paul's attitudes about the flesh are unique among biblical and latter day authors. In our day, the "flesh" is not seen as so perverse. The "flesh" nature of deity is continually asserted, as is the divine nature of the physical intimacy within marriage. Having a "body" is seen as one of the greatest things a spirit can ever attain. So why is the flesh so continually vilified by Paul? Rom 8:20. Who his the "him" in the phrase "him who hath subjected the same"? God? Adam? Someone else? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 8:11-15. For a poetic exploration of a pagan's conversion, see User: Joe Spencer/grace. Rom 8:16-17. Keith R. Edwards, "That They Might Know Thee," Ensign, Nov 2006, pp. 99–101. Elder Edwards said: "Paul wrote that our suffering may give us an opportunity to know the Savior better... Now, lest anyone go looking for hardship and suffering, that is not what is taught. Rather, it is the attitude with which we approach our hardships and trials that allows us to know the Savior better." Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11

Rom 8:1-5

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 5-8 Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 5:2. With the free gift of God's grace,we are invited to rejoice in our salvation. Yet do we need to do anything more? Yes: to glory in tribulation which leads to patience and hope. This could be seen as Paul's version of the "first principles and ordinances of the gospel." First, faith, second suffering through tribulation, third patience or endurance, and fourth hope. Through the process, we finally arrive at the Holy Ghost, just as we do in Joseph Smith's first principles and ordinances. Rom 5:5: Shed abroad. The Greek word ekcheo ("shed abroad") is also used in the sense of "pouring" in the LXX in Num 19:17 and Ex 30:18 in a purification rite. This is also the word used in Matt 26:28 to describe Christ's blood being shed for the sins of others, the same phrasing we find in our sacrament prayers. See also Matt 23:35; Acts 22:20; Rev 16:6. Rom 5:8: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Here Paul notes that Christ suffers for sinners, not saints, or the righteous. "None are rightious" he had said previously. In a sense, Christ is most often with us when we are sinners, suffering and silently enduring with us. Although as Saints, we may feel his presence, yet he is also very present in the life of the sinner, gently trying to mould the life in a way that might promote some kind of healing. But even if not, he is always there, suffering all things with the sinner. Rom 5:13: Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Some believe that the heathen will go to hell. However, Paul clearly states that sin is never imputed unto those without the law. Some might argue, but the Fall of Adam makes all men sinful. Not according to this scripture. Without the law, there is no sin, no condemnation, and thus, no hell. Only mortal death is imputed from the Fall. But spiritual death comes only from our own sins, in the presence of a known law. Paul says even of himself, in Rom 7:9, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Paul was scott free, sinless, alive, and uncondemned before he knew the law. Then when he heard the law, he died. Rom 6:22: Everlasting. The same Greek word (aionios) that is translated as "everlasting" in verse 22 is translated as "eternal" in verse 23. Rom 6:21-23. In these verses Paul wraps up a lengthy argument in which he encourages followers of Christ to become obedient to righteousness. Apparently, there were some Christians who felt that because of grace that it didn't matter what they did with their lives. But Paul unequivocally rejects this idea in verse 15. In the end, he says in verses 21-23, we have two choices: death (verse 21 and 23) that comes from doing iniquity, or holiness (sanctification and purity) with the result of eternal life (verses 22 and 23). Rom 7:1. Compare the usage of this word in Rom 5:21; Rom 6:9; Rom 6:14. Note esp. Rom 6:14 since it seems this chapter is will be taking up the question of what it means to be "not under the law, but under grace." Rom 7:2: Bound by the law. Paul seems to be referring to the law described in Deut 24:1. Rom 7:4: Wherefore ... ye also. The phrasing here draws a comparison between Jewish law as it pertains to a woman whose husband as died. However, this should not be read strictly as an analogy. That is, there are themes from this example that Paul will employ in discussing law—namely, the ideas of law, death, and union (old and new)—however, trying to make one-to-one identification mappings between, say, the first husband and the law, seem to be strained, going beyond Paul's purpose. Rom 7:5: Which were by the law. Although this is a fairly literal translation of the Greek, most modern translations amend this so it makes more sense. Several translations (e.g. NRSV, NASB, NET, NIV, NKJV) add the word "arouse" to make more sense of the phrase. For example, the NRSV for this verse is: "While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death" (emphasis added). In this sense, perhaps the "sinful passions" (NRSV) or "motions of sins" (KJV) are "by the law" because the law, in prohibiting a certain act, makes that very act more attractive. That is, in the very act of prohibiting an act, attention is drawn to that act. However, it should be noted, that although several modern translations seem to take this approach, this is only one of several possible interpretive directions to take. James D. G. Dunn, for example, in his Word Biblical Commentary volume on Romans 1-8, translates this verse as: "For when we were in the flesh the sinful passions which operate through the law were effective in what we are and do so as to bear fruit for death." Here, the phrase "the sinful passions which operate through the law" seems truer to the ambiguity in the Greek in that it allows for this "operat[ion]" of sin through (or by) the law to function in many possible ways, either by arousing interest in sin, or by some other way (Dunn seems to take this in terms of the law acting through us, tying in, perhaps, to the notion of serving the law of sin rather than the law of God; cf. Rom 7:6; Rom 7:25). I would also cite 2 Nephi 2:13(11-13) which suggests a different reading of Romans 7:5 than that suggested by the other authors cited. I further think the larger context also agreeable to this meaning. That is, that sin, being an act of breaking the law, can only exist in a context where there is law. Therefore, if there was no law, then there would be no sin and it can justly be said that sin takes its existence from the law and is therefore enabled to work in us because of the law. So, I would then read Romans 7:5 as being an extension of the act played out in the garden of eden. Man became mortal because of transgression and that transgression still works in us unto death, but not just this "original" sin, but also the suggestion seems to remain that other sins that we commit ourselves contribute to this decay. A question in my mind is that if the simple transgression of Adam and Eve still works within us to make us mortal, to produce a temporal decay, then can the sins of our other progenitors have also contributed to this decay? Not having read the authors cited, perhaps the do take up some of these ideas. Any thoughts? I was wondering the same thing regarding 2 Ne 2. As my jumbled notes on this probably make obvious, I'm not very clear on what "typical" Bible scholars think about this passage (and whole chapter), let alone how a Mormon reading might differ. My plan is to try and study what Bible scholars think about this chapter, then think how 2 Ne 2 might influence how we read this chapter, and finally take up the intriguing JST on this passage. Actually, I think the subsequent verses will help us think about what Paul is up to here, but I haven't really made sense of them yet for myself yet. Onward ho.... --RobertC 19:00, 24 August 2007 (CEST) Rom 7:6. It seems that Paul's purpose in employing this marriage analogy (vv. 1-6) is to argue that the law's grasp does not extend beyond death. In light of the "baptized into [Christ's] death" (Rom 6:3) theme in chapter 6, the idea seems to be that in baptism, the Christian is "delivered from the law" ("discharged from the law" in the NRSV; in Greek, the same verb is used here, katargeo, as in verse 2 to describe the way in which a woman whose husband dies is "loosed from the law"). Rom 7:9. Before we hear the gospel, before we have the law, we are alive, sinless. When the law comes, we die. Here we have a possible explanation for why "gentiles" sometimes seem to weather the consequences of sin better than saints. Pornography is the perfect example. Statistics seem to indicate that rates of addiction are higher in Mormon areas. Undoubtedly, these addictions take a much higher toll than they do for "gentiles." The reason is simple. Where there is a law, there is spiritual death, and all the consequences of that death. Although I believe that even for "gentiles" there are consequences to certain actions that we as Mormons call "sins," these consequences do not include spiritual death on the same level we as LDS members experience. Rom 7:15-25: JST. Verses 15-25 take on a clearer and less awkward meaning in JST (passages not noted in LDS Edition. See The New Testament with the Joseph Smith Translation by Steven and Julie Hite or the edition by Wayment. Rom 7:20. Is Paul advocating personal responsibility away from us by noting our helplessness in the face of the power of sin upon us? In a way, yes, but in a way, no. We don't have to feel so guilty if our flesh is full of lusts, for that is it's natural state. "The natural man is an enemy to God" as King Benjamin said. Paul says nothing good comes from the flesh, which may be only his personal opinion based on his own demons, (i.e. his thorn in the flesh). But it is true that the flesh is an unruly member, no matter how deep our spiritual commitment to the commandments. It is only through Christ that we can hope to achieve freedom through forgiveness. Rom 8:13. This is similar to Christ's idea: "He that findeth his life shall lose it, and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Matthew 10:39 Rom 8:33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?. A beautiful scripture on the pointlessness of criticism and passing judgement on those who have been called and chosen. Sure they may not always be perfect, but when they have already been saved by Christ who made intercession for them, who are we to ever pass judgement upon them? Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 7:18. In the flesh dwelleth no good thing. Paul's attitudes about the flesh are unique among biblical and latter day authors. In our day, the "flesh" is not seen as so perverse. The "flesh" nature of deity is continually asserted, as is the divine nature of the physical intimacy within marriage. Having a "body" is seen as one of the greatest things a spirit can ever attain. So why is the flesh so continually vilified by Paul? Rom 8:20. Who his the "him" in the phrase "him who hath subjected the same"? God? Adam? Someone else? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 8:11-15. For a poetic exploration of a pagan's conversion, see User: Joe Spencer/grace. Rom 8:16-17. Keith R. Edwards, "That They Might Know Thee," Ensign, Nov 2006, pp. 99–101. Elder Edwards said: "Paul wrote that our suffering may give us an opportunity to know the Savior better... Now, lest anyone go looking for hardship and suffering, that is not what is taught. Rather, it is the attitude with which we approach our hardships and trials that allows us to know the Savior better." Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11

Rom 8:6-10

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 5-8 Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 5:2. With the free gift of God's grace,we are invited to rejoice in our salvation. Yet do we need to do anything more? Yes: to glory in tribulation which leads to patience and hope. This could be seen as Paul's version of the "first principles and ordinances of the gospel." First, faith, second suffering through tribulation, third patience or endurance, and fourth hope. Through the process, we finally arrive at the Holy Ghost, just as we do in Joseph Smith's first principles and ordinances. Rom 5:5: Shed abroad. The Greek word ekcheo ("shed abroad") is also used in the sense of "pouring" in the LXX in Num 19:17 and Ex 30:18 in a purification rite. This is also the word used in Matt 26:28 to describe Christ's blood being shed for the sins of others, the same phrasing we find in our sacrament prayers. See also Matt 23:35; Acts 22:20; Rev 16:6. Rom 5:8: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Here Paul notes that Christ suffers for sinners, not saints, or the righteous. "None are rightious" he had said previously. In a sense, Christ is most often with us when we are sinners, suffering and silently enduring with us. Although as Saints, we may feel his presence, yet he is also very present in the life of the sinner, gently trying to mould the life in a way that might promote some kind of healing. But even if not, he is always there, suffering all things with the sinner. Rom 5:13: Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Some believe that the heathen will go to hell. However, Paul clearly states that sin is never imputed unto those without the law. Some might argue, but the Fall of Adam makes all men sinful. Not according to this scripture. Without the law, there is no sin, no condemnation, and thus, no hell. Only mortal death is imputed from the Fall. But spiritual death comes only from our own sins, in the presence of a known law. Paul says even of himself, in Rom 7:9, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Paul was scott free, sinless, alive, and uncondemned before he knew the law. Then when he heard the law, he died. Rom 6:22: Everlasting. The same Greek word (aionios) that is translated as "everlasting" in verse 22 is translated as "eternal" in verse 23. Rom 6:21-23. In these verses Paul wraps up a lengthy argument in which he encourages followers of Christ to become obedient to righteousness. Apparently, there were some Christians who felt that because of grace that it didn't matter what they did with their lives. But Paul unequivocally rejects this idea in verse 15. In the end, he says in verses 21-23, we have two choices: death (verse 21 and 23) that comes from doing iniquity, or holiness (sanctification and purity) with the result of eternal life (verses 22 and 23). Rom 7:1. Compare the usage of this word in Rom 5:21; Rom 6:9; Rom 6:14. Note esp. Rom 6:14 since it seems this chapter is will be taking up the question of what it means to be "not under the law, but under grace." Rom 7:2: Bound by the law. Paul seems to be referring to the law described in Deut 24:1. Rom 7:4: Wherefore ... ye also. The phrasing here draws a comparison between Jewish law as it pertains to a woman whose husband as died. However, this should not be read strictly as an analogy. That is, there are themes from this example that Paul will employ in discussing law—namely, the ideas of law, death, and union (old and new)—however, trying to make one-to-one identification mappings between, say, the first husband and the law, seem to be strained, going beyond Paul's purpose. Rom 7:5: Which were by the law. Although this is a fairly literal translation of the Greek, most modern translations amend this so it makes more sense. Several translations (e.g. NRSV, NASB, NET, NIV, NKJV) add the word "arouse" to make more sense of the phrase. For example, the NRSV for this verse is: "While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death" (emphasis added). In this sense, perhaps the "sinful passions" (NRSV) or "motions of sins" (KJV) are "by the law" because the law, in prohibiting a certain act, makes that very act more attractive. That is, in the very act of prohibiting an act, attention is drawn to that act. However, it should be noted, that although several modern translations seem to take this approach, this is only one of several possible interpretive directions to take. James D. G. Dunn, for example, in his Word Biblical Commentary volume on Romans 1-8, translates this verse as: "For when we were in the flesh the sinful passions which operate through the law were effective in what we are and do so as to bear fruit for death." Here, the phrase "the sinful passions which operate through the law" seems truer to the ambiguity in the Greek in that it allows for this "operat[ion]" of sin through (or by) the law to function in many possible ways, either by arousing interest in sin, or by some other way (Dunn seems to take this in terms of the law acting through us, tying in, perhaps, to the notion of serving the law of sin rather than the law of God; cf. Rom 7:6; Rom 7:25). I would also cite 2 Nephi 2:13(11-13) which suggests a different reading of Romans 7:5 than that suggested by the other authors cited. I further think the larger context also agreeable to this meaning. That is, that sin, being an act of breaking the law, can only exist in a context where there is law. Therefore, if there was no law, then there would be no sin and it can justly be said that sin takes its existence from the law and is therefore enabled to work in us because of the law. So, I would then read Romans 7:5 as being an extension of the act played out in the garden of eden. Man became mortal because of transgression and that transgression still works in us unto death, but not just this "original" sin, but also the suggestion seems to remain that other sins that we commit ourselves contribute to this decay. A question in my mind is that if the simple transgression of Adam and Eve still works within us to make us mortal, to produce a temporal decay, then can the sins of our other progenitors have also contributed to this decay? Not having read the authors cited, perhaps the do take up some of these ideas. Any thoughts? I was wondering the same thing regarding 2 Ne 2. As my jumbled notes on this probably make obvious, I'm not very clear on what "typical" Bible scholars think about this passage (and whole chapter), let alone how a Mormon reading might differ. My plan is to try and study what Bible scholars think about this chapter, then think how 2 Ne 2 might influence how we read this chapter, and finally take up the intriguing JST on this passage. Actually, I think the subsequent verses will help us think about what Paul is up to here, but I haven't really made sense of them yet for myself yet. Onward ho.... --RobertC 19:00, 24 August 2007 (CEST) Rom 7:6. It seems that Paul's purpose in employing this marriage analogy (vv. 1-6) is to argue that the law's grasp does not extend beyond death. In light of the "baptized into [Christ's] death" (Rom 6:3) theme in chapter 6, the idea seems to be that in baptism, the Christian is "delivered from the law" ("discharged from the law" in the NRSV; in Greek, the same verb is used here, katargeo, as in verse 2 to describe the way in which a woman whose husband dies is "loosed from the law"). Rom 7:9. Before we hear the gospel, before we have the law, we are alive, sinless. When the law comes, we die. Here we have a possible explanation for why "gentiles" sometimes seem to weather the consequences of sin better than saints. Pornography is the perfect example. Statistics seem to indicate that rates of addiction are higher in Mormon areas. Undoubtedly, these addictions take a much higher toll than they do for "gentiles." The reason is simple. Where there is a law, there is spiritual death, and all the consequences of that death. Although I believe that even for "gentiles" there are consequences to certain actions that we as Mormons call "sins," these consequences do not include spiritual death on the same level we as LDS members experience. Rom 7:15-25: JST. Verses 15-25 take on a clearer and less awkward meaning in JST (passages not noted in LDS Edition. See The New Testament with the Joseph Smith Translation by Steven and Julie Hite or the edition by Wayment. Rom 7:20. Is Paul advocating personal responsibility away from us by noting our helplessness in the face of the power of sin upon us? In a way, yes, but in a way, no. We don't have to feel so guilty if our flesh is full of lusts, for that is it's natural state. "The natural man is an enemy to God" as King Benjamin said. Paul says nothing good comes from the flesh, which may be only his personal opinion based on his own demons, (i.e. his thorn in the flesh). But it is true that the flesh is an unruly member, no matter how deep our spiritual commitment to the commandments. It is only through Christ that we can hope to achieve freedom through forgiveness. Rom 8:13. This is similar to Christ's idea: "He that findeth his life shall lose it, and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Matthew 10:39 Rom 8:33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?. A beautiful scripture on the pointlessness of criticism and passing judgement on those who have been called and chosen. Sure they may not always be perfect, but when they have already been saved by Christ who made intercession for them, who are we to ever pass judgement upon them? Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 7:18. In the flesh dwelleth no good thing. Paul's attitudes about the flesh are unique among biblical and latter day authors. In our day, the "flesh" is not seen as so perverse. The "flesh" nature of deity is continually asserted, as is the divine nature of the physical intimacy within marriage. Having a "body" is seen as one of the greatest things a spirit can ever attain. So why is the flesh so continually vilified by Paul? Rom 8:20. Who his the "him" in the phrase "him who hath subjected the same"? God? Adam? Someone else? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 8:11-15. For a poetic exploration of a pagan's conversion, see User: Joe Spencer/grace. Rom 8:16-17. Keith R. Edwards, "That They Might Know Thee," Ensign, Nov 2006, pp. 99–101. Elder Edwards said: "Paul wrote that our suffering may give us an opportunity to know the Savior better... Now, lest anyone go looking for hardship and suffering, that is not what is taught. Rather, it is the attitude with which we approach our hardships and trials that allows us to know the Savior better." Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11

Rom 8:11-15

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 5-8 Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 5:2. With the free gift of God's grace,we are invited to rejoice in our salvation. Yet do we need to do anything more? Yes: to glory in tribulation which leads to patience and hope. This could be seen as Paul's version of the "first principles and ordinances of the gospel." First, faith, second suffering through tribulation, third patience or endurance, and fourth hope. Through the process, we finally arrive at the Holy Ghost, just as we do in Joseph Smith's first principles and ordinances. Rom 5:5: Shed abroad. The Greek word ekcheo ("shed abroad") is also used in the sense of "pouring" in the LXX in Num 19:17 and Ex 30:18 in a purification rite. This is also the word used in Matt 26:28 to describe Christ's blood being shed for the sins of others, the same phrasing we find in our sacrament prayers. See also Matt 23:35; Acts 22:20; Rev 16:6. Rom 5:8: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Here Paul notes that Christ suffers for sinners, not saints, or the righteous. "None are rightious" he had said previously. In a sense, Christ is most often with us when we are sinners, suffering and silently enduring with us. Although as Saints, we may feel his presence, yet he is also very present in the life of the sinner, gently trying to mould the life in a way that might promote some kind of healing. But even if not, he is always there, suffering all things with the sinner. Rom 5:13: Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Some believe that the heathen will go to hell. However, Paul clearly states that sin is never imputed unto those without the law. Some might argue, but the Fall of Adam makes all men sinful. Not according to this scripture. Without the law, there is no sin, no condemnation, and thus, no hell. Only mortal death is imputed from the Fall. But spiritual death comes only from our own sins, in the presence of a known law. Paul says even of himself, in Rom 7:9, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Paul was scott free, sinless, alive, and uncondemned before he knew the law. Then when he heard the law, he died. Rom 6:22: Everlasting. The same Greek word (aionios) that is translated as "everlasting" in verse 22 is translated as "eternal" in verse 23. Rom 6:21-23. In these verses Paul wraps up a lengthy argument in which he encourages followers of Christ to become obedient to righteousness. Apparently, there were some Christians who felt that because of grace that it didn't matter what they did with their lives. But Paul unequivocally rejects this idea in verse 15. In the end, he says in verses 21-23, we have two choices: death (verse 21 and 23) that comes from doing iniquity, or holiness (sanctification and purity) with the result of eternal life (verses 22 and 23). Rom 7:1. Compare the usage of this word in Rom 5:21; Rom 6:9; Rom 6:14. Note esp. Rom 6:14 since it seems this chapter is will be taking up the question of what it means to be "not under the law, but under grace." Rom 7:2: Bound by the law. Paul seems to be referring to the law described in Deut 24:1. Rom 7:4: Wherefore ... ye also. The phrasing here draws a comparison between Jewish law as it pertains to a woman whose husband as died. However, this should not be read strictly as an analogy. That is, there are themes from this example that Paul will employ in discussing law—namely, the ideas of law, death, and union (old and new)—however, trying to make one-to-one identification mappings between, say, the first husband and the law, seem to be strained, going beyond Paul's purpose. Rom 7:5: Which were by the law. Although this is a fairly literal translation of the Greek, most modern translations amend this so it makes more sense. Several translations (e.g. NRSV, NASB, NET, NIV, NKJV) add the word "arouse" to make more sense of the phrase. For example, the NRSV for this verse is: "While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death" (emphasis added). In this sense, perhaps the "sinful passions" (NRSV) or "motions of sins" (KJV) are "by the law" because the law, in prohibiting a certain act, makes that very act more attractive. That is, in the very act of prohibiting an act, attention is drawn to that act. However, it should be noted, that although several modern translations seem to take this approach, this is only one of several possible interpretive directions to take. James D. G. Dunn, for example, in his Word Biblical Commentary volume on Romans 1-8, translates this verse as: "For when we were in the flesh the sinful passions which operate through the law were effective in what we are and do so as to bear fruit for death." Here, the phrase "the sinful passions which operate through the law" seems truer to the ambiguity in the Greek in that it allows for this "operat[ion]" of sin through (or by) the law to function in many possible ways, either by arousing interest in sin, or by some other way (Dunn seems to take this in terms of the law acting through us, tying in, perhaps, to the notion of serving the law of sin rather than the law of God; cf. Rom 7:6; Rom 7:25). I would also cite 2 Nephi 2:13(11-13) which suggests a different reading of Romans 7:5 than that suggested by the other authors cited. I further think the larger context also agreeable to this meaning. That is, that sin, being an act of breaking the law, can only exist in a context where there is law. Therefore, if there was no law, then there would be no sin and it can justly be said that sin takes its existence from the law and is therefore enabled to work in us because of the law. So, I would then read Romans 7:5 as being an extension of the act played out in the garden of eden. Man became mortal because of transgression and that transgression still works in us unto death, but not just this "original" sin, but also the suggestion seems to remain that other sins that we commit ourselves contribute to this decay. A question in my mind is that if the simple transgression of Adam and Eve still works within us to make us mortal, to produce a temporal decay, then can the sins of our other progenitors have also contributed to this decay? Not having read the authors cited, perhaps the do take up some of these ideas. Any thoughts? I was wondering the same thing regarding 2 Ne 2. As my jumbled notes on this probably make obvious, I'm not very clear on what "typical" Bible scholars think about this passage (and whole chapter), let alone how a Mormon reading might differ. My plan is to try and study what Bible scholars think about this chapter, then think how 2 Ne 2 might influence how we read this chapter, and finally take up the intriguing JST on this passage. Actually, I think the subsequent verses will help us think about what Paul is up to here, but I haven't really made sense of them yet for myself yet. Onward ho.... --RobertC 19:00, 24 August 2007 (CEST) Rom 7:6. It seems that Paul's purpose in employing this marriage analogy (vv. 1-6) is to argue that the law's grasp does not extend beyond death. In light of the "baptized into [Christ's] death" (Rom 6:3) theme in chapter 6, the idea seems to be that in baptism, the Christian is "delivered from the law" ("discharged from the law" in the NRSV; in Greek, the same verb is used here, katargeo, as in verse 2 to describe the way in which a woman whose husband dies is "loosed from the law"). Rom 7:9. Before we hear the gospel, before we have the law, we are alive, sinless. When the law comes, we die. Here we have a possible explanation for why "gentiles" sometimes seem to weather the consequences of sin better than saints. Pornography is the perfect example. Statistics seem to indicate that rates of addiction are higher in Mormon areas. Undoubtedly, these addictions take a much higher toll than they do for "gentiles." The reason is simple. Where there is a law, there is spiritual death, and all the consequences of that death. Although I believe that even for "gentiles" there are consequences to certain actions that we as Mormons call "sins," these consequences do not include spiritual death on the same level we as LDS members experience. Rom 7:15-25: JST. Verses 15-25 take on a clearer and less awkward meaning in JST (passages not noted in LDS Edition. See The New Testament with the Joseph Smith Translation by Steven and Julie Hite or the edition by Wayment. Rom 7:20. Is Paul advocating personal responsibility away from us by noting our helplessness in the face of the power of sin upon us? In a way, yes, but in a way, no. We don't have to feel so guilty if our flesh is full of lusts, for that is it's natural state. "The natural man is an enemy to God" as King Benjamin said. Paul says nothing good comes from the flesh, which may be only his personal opinion based on his own demons, (i.e. his thorn in the flesh). But it is true that the flesh is an unruly member, no matter how deep our spiritual commitment to the commandments. It is only through Christ that we can hope to achieve freedom through forgiveness. Rom 8:13. This is similar to Christ's idea: "He that findeth his life shall lose it, and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Matthew 10:39 Rom 8:33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?. A beautiful scripture on the pointlessness of criticism and passing judgement on those who have been called and chosen. Sure they may not always be perfect, but when they have already been saved by Christ who made intercession for them, who are we to ever pass judgement upon them? Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 7:18. In the flesh dwelleth no good thing. Paul's attitudes about the flesh are unique among biblical and latter day authors. In our day, the "flesh" is not seen as so perverse. The "flesh" nature of deity is continually asserted, as is the divine nature of the physical intimacy within marriage. Having a "body" is seen as one of the greatest things a spirit can ever attain. So why is the flesh so continually vilified by Paul? Rom 8:20. Who his the "him" in the phrase "him who hath subjected the same"? God? Adam? Someone else? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 8:11-15. For a poetic exploration of a pagan's conversion, see User: Joe Spencer/grace. Rom 8:16-17. Keith R. Edwards, "That They Might Know Thee," Ensign, Nov 2006, pp. 99–101. Elder Edwards said: "Paul wrote that our suffering may give us an opportunity to know the Savior better... Now, lest anyone go looking for hardship and suffering, that is not what is taught. Rather, it is the attitude with which we approach our hardships and trials that allows us to know the Savior better." Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11

Rom 8:16-20

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 5-8 Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 5:2. With the free gift of God's grace,we are invited to rejoice in our salvation. Yet do we need to do anything more? Yes: to glory in tribulation which leads to patience and hope. This could be seen as Paul's version of the "first principles and ordinances of the gospel." First, faith, second suffering through tribulation, third patience or endurance, and fourth hope. Through the process, we finally arrive at the Holy Ghost, just as we do in Joseph Smith's first principles and ordinances. Rom 5:5: Shed abroad. The Greek word ekcheo ("shed abroad") is also used in the sense of "pouring" in the LXX in Num 19:17 and Ex 30:18 in a purification rite. This is also the word used in Matt 26:28 to describe Christ's blood being shed for the sins of others, the same phrasing we find in our sacrament prayers. See also Matt 23:35; Acts 22:20; Rev 16:6. Rom 5:8: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Here Paul notes that Christ suffers for sinners, not saints, or the righteous. "None are rightious" he had said previously. In a sense, Christ is most often with us when we are sinners, suffering and silently enduring with us. Although as Saints, we may feel his presence, yet he is also very present in the life of the sinner, gently trying to mould the life in a way that might promote some kind of healing. But even if not, he is always there, suffering all things with the sinner. Rom 5:13: Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Some believe that the heathen will go to hell. However, Paul clearly states that sin is never imputed unto those without the law. Some might argue, but the Fall of Adam makes all men sinful. Not according to this scripture. Without the law, there is no sin, no condemnation, and thus, no hell. Only mortal death is imputed from the Fall. But spiritual death comes only from our own sins, in the presence of a known law. Paul says even of himself, in Rom 7:9, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Paul was scott free, sinless, alive, and uncondemned before he knew the law. Then when he heard the law, he died. Rom 6:22: Everlasting. The same Greek word (aionios) that is translated as "everlasting" in verse 22 is translated as "eternal" in verse 23. Rom 6:21-23. In these verses Paul wraps up a lengthy argument in which he encourages followers of Christ to become obedient to righteousness. Apparently, there were some Christians who felt that because of grace that it didn't matter what they did with their lives. But Paul unequivocally rejects this idea in verse 15. In the end, he says in verses 21-23, we have two choices: death (verse 21 and 23) that comes from doing iniquity, or holiness (sanctification and purity) with the result of eternal life (verses 22 and 23). Rom 7:1. Compare the usage of this word in Rom 5:21; Rom 6:9; Rom 6:14. Note esp. Rom 6:14 since it seems this chapter is will be taking up the question of what it means to be "not under the law, but under grace." Rom 7:2: Bound by the law. Paul seems to be referring to the law described in Deut 24:1. Rom 7:4: Wherefore ... ye also. The phrasing here draws a comparison between Jewish law as it pertains to a woman whose husband as died. However, this should not be read strictly as an analogy. That is, there are themes from this example that Paul will employ in discussing law—namely, the ideas of law, death, and union (old and new)—however, trying to make one-to-one identification mappings between, say, the first husband and the law, seem to be strained, going beyond Paul's purpose. Rom 7:5: Which were by the law. Although this is a fairly literal translation of the Greek, most modern translations amend this so it makes more sense. Several translations (e.g. NRSV, NASB, NET, NIV, NKJV) add the word "arouse" to make more sense of the phrase. For example, the NRSV for this verse is: "While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death" (emphasis added). In this sense, perhaps the "sinful passions" (NRSV) or "motions of sins" (KJV) are "by the law" because the law, in prohibiting a certain act, makes that very act more attractive. That is, in the very act of prohibiting an act, attention is drawn to that act. However, it should be noted, that although several modern translations seem to take this approach, this is only one of several possible interpretive directions to take. James D. G. Dunn, for example, in his Word Biblical Commentary volume on Romans 1-8, translates this verse as: "For when we were in the flesh the sinful passions which operate through the law were effective in what we are and do so as to bear fruit for death." Here, the phrase "the sinful passions which operate through the law" seems truer to the ambiguity in the Greek in that it allows for this "operat[ion]" of sin through (or by) the law to function in many possible ways, either by arousing interest in sin, or by some other way (Dunn seems to take this in terms of the law acting through us, tying in, perhaps, to the notion of serving the law of sin rather than the law of God; cf. Rom 7:6; Rom 7:25). I would also cite 2 Nephi 2:13(11-13) which suggests a different reading of Romans 7:5 than that suggested by the other authors cited. I further think the larger context also agreeable to this meaning. That is, that sin, being an act of breaking the law, can only exist in a context where there is law. Therefore, if there was no law, then there would be no sin and it can justly be said that sin takes its existence from the law and is therefore enabled to work in us because of the law. So, I would then read Romans 7:5 as being an extension of the act played out in the garden of eden. Man became mortal because of transgression and that transgression still works in us unto death, but not just this "original" sin, but also the suggestion seems to remain that other sins that we commit ourselves contribute to this decay. A question in my mind is that if the simple transgression of Adam and Eve still works within us to make us mortal, to produce a temporal decay, then can the sins of our other progenitors have also contributed to this decay? Not having read the authors cited, perhaps the do take up some of these ideas. Any thoughts? I was wondering the same thing regarding 2 Ne 2. As my jumbled notes on this probably make obvious, I'm not very clear on what "typical" Bible scholars think about this passage (and whole chapter), let alone how a Mormon reading might differ. My plan is to try and study what Bible scholars think about this chapter, then think how 2 Ne 2 might influence how we read this chapter, and finally take up the intriguing JST on this passage. Actually, I think the subsequent verses will help us think about what Paul is up to here, but I haven't really made sense of them yet for myself yet. Onward ho.... --RobertC 19:00, 24 August 2007 (CEST) Rom 7:6. It seems that Paul's purpose in employing this marriage analogy (vv. 1-6) is to argue that the law's grasp does not extend beyond death. In light of the "baptized into [Christ's] death" (Rom 6:3) theme in chapter 6, the idea seems to be that in baptism, the Christian is "delivered from the law" ("discharged from the law" in the NRSV; in Greek, the same verb is used here, katargeo, as in verse 2 to describe the way in which a woman whose husband dies is "loosed from the law"). Rom 7:9. Before we hear the gospel, before we have the law, we are alive, sinless. When the law comes, we die. Here we have a possible explanation for why "gentiles" sometimes seem to weather the consequences of sin better than saints. Pornography is the perfect example. Statistics seem to indicate that rates of addiction are higher in Mormon areas. Undoubtedly, these addictions take a much higher toll than they do for "gentiles." The reason is simple. Where there is a law, there is spiritual death, and all the consequences of that death. Although I believe that even for "gentiles" there are consequences to certain actions that we as Mormons call "sins," these consequences do not include spiritual death on the same level we as LDS members experience. Rom 7:15-25: JST. Verses 15-25 take on a clearer and less awkward meaning in JST (passages not noted in LDS Edition. See The New Testament with the Joseph Smith Translation by Steven and Julie Hite or the edition by Wayment. Rom 7:20. Is Paul advocating personal responsibility away from us by noting our helplessness in the face of the power of sin upon us? In a way, yes, but in a way, no. We don't have to feel so guilty if our flesh is full of lusts, for that is it's natural state. "The natural man is an enemy to God" as King Benjamin said. Paul says nothing good comes from the flesh, which may be only his personal opinion based on his own demons, (i.e. his thorn in the flesh). But it is true that the flesh is an unruly member, no matter how deep our spiritual commitment to the commandments. It is only through Christ that we can hope to achieve freedom through forgiveness. Rom 8:13. This is similar to Christ's idea: "He that findeth his life shall lose it, and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Matthew 10:39 Rom 8:33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?. A beautiful scripture on the pointlessness of criticism and passing judgement on those who have been called and chosen. Sure they may not always be perfect, but when they have already been saved by Christ who made intercession for them, who are we to ever pass judgement upon them? Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 7:18. In the flesh dwelleth no good thing. Paul's attitudes about the flesh are unique among biblical and latter day authors. In our day, the "flesh" is not seen as so perverse. The "flesh" nature of deity is continually asserted, as is the divine nature of the physical intimacy within marriage. Having a "body" is seen as one of the greatest things a spirit can ever attain. So why is the flesh so continually vilified by Paul? Rom 8:20. Who his the "him" in the phrase "him who hath subjected the same"? God? Adam? Someone else? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 8:11-15. For a poetic exploration of a pagan's conversion, see User: Joe Spencer/grace. Rom 8:16-17. Keith R. Edwards, "That They Might Know Thee," Ensign, Nov 2006, pp. 99–101. Elder Edwards said: "Paul wrote that our suffering may give us an opportunity to know the Savior better... Now, lest anyone go looking for hardship and suffering, that is not what is taught. Rather, it is the attitude with which we approach our hardships and trials that allows us to know the Savior better." Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11

Rom 8:21-25

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 5-8 Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 5:2. With the free gift of God's grace,we are invited to rejoice in our salvation. Yet do we need to do anything more? Yes: to glory in tribulation which leads to patience and hope. This could be seen as Paul's version of the "first principles and ordinances of the gospel." First, faith, second suffering through tribulation, third patience or endurance, and fourth hope. Through the process, we finally arrive at the Holy Ghost, just as we do in Joseph Smith's first principles and ordinances. Rom 5:5: Shed abroad. The Greek word ekcheo ("shed abroad") is also used in the sense of "pouring" in the LXX in Num 19:17 and Ex 30:18 in a purification rite. This is also the word used in Matt 26:28 to describe Christ's blood being shed for the sins of others, the same phrasing we find in our sacrament prayers. See also Matt 23:35; Acts 22:20; Rev 16:6. Rom 5:8: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Here Paul notes that Christ suffers for sinners, not saints, or the righteous. "None are rightious" he had said previously. In a sense, Christ is most often with us when we are sinners, suffering and silently enduring with us. Although as Saints, we may feel his presence, yet he is also very present in the life of the sinner, gently trying to mould the life in a way that might promote some kind of healing. But even if not, he is always there, suffering all things with the sinner. Rom 5:13: Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Some believe that the heathen will go to hell. However, Paul clearly states that sin is never imputed unto those without the law. Some might argue, but the Fall of Adam makes all men sinful. Not according to this scripture. Without the law, there is no sin, no condemnation, and thus, no hell. Only mortal death is imputed from the Fall. But spiritual death comes only from our own sins, in the presence of a known law. Paul says even of himself, in Rom 7:9, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Paul was scott free, sinless, alive, and uncondemned before he knew the law. Then when he heard the law, he died. Rom 6:22: Everlasting. The same Greek word (aionios) that is translated as "everlasting" in verse 22 is translated as "eternal" in verse 23. Rom 6:21-23. In these verses Paul wraps up a lengthy argument in which he encourages followers of Christ to become obedient to righteousness. Apparently, there were some Christians who felt that because of grace that it didn't matter what they did with their lives. But Paul unequivocally rejects this idea in verse 15. In the end, he says in verses 21-23, we have two choices: death (verse 21 and 23) that comes from doing iniquity, or holiness (sanctification and purity) with the result of eternal life (verses 22 and 23). Rom 7:1. Compare the usage of this word in Rom 5:21; Rom 6:9; Rom 6:14. Note esp. Rom 6:14 since it seems this chapter is will be taking up the question of what it means to be "not under the law, but under grace." Rom 7:2: Bound by the law. Paul seems to be referring to the law described in Deut 24:1. Rom 7:4: Wherefore ... ye also. The phrasing here draws a comparison between Jewish law as it pertains to a woman whose husband as died. However, this should not be read strictly as an analogy. That is, there are themes from this example that Paul will employ in discussing law—namely, the ideas of law, death, and union (old and new)—however, trying to make one-to-one identification mappings between, say, the first husband and the law, seem to be strained, going beyond Paul's purpose. Rom 7:5: Which were by the law. Although this is a fairly literal translation of the Greek, most modern translations amend this so it makes more sense. Several translations (e.g. NRSV, NASB, NET, NIV, NKJV) add the word "arouse" to make more sense of the phrase. For example, the NRSV for this verse is: "While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death" (emphasis added). In this sense, perhaps the "sinful passions" (NRSV) or "motions of sins" (KJV) are "by the law" because the law, in prohibiting a certain act, makes that very act more attractive. That is, in the very act of prohibiting an act, attention is drawn to that act. However, it should be noted, that although several modern translations seem to take this approach, this is only one of several possible interpretive directions to take. James D. G. Dunn, for example, in his Word Biblical Commentary volume on Romans 1-8, translates this verse as: "For when we were in the flesh the sinful passions which operate through the law were effective in what we are and do so as to bear fruit for death." Here, the phrase "the sinful passions which operate through the law" seems truer to the ambiguity in the Greek in that it allows for this "operat[ion]" of sin through (or by) the law to function in many possible ways, either by arousing interest in sin, or by some other way (Dunn seems to take this in terms of the law acting through us, tying in, perhaps, to the notion of serving the law of sin rather than the law of God; cf. Rom 7:6; Rom 7:25). I would also cite 2 Nephi 2:13(11-13) which suggests a different reading of Romans 7:5 than that suggested by the other authors cited. I further think the larger context also agreeable to this meaning. That is, that sin, being an act of breaking the law, can only exist in a context where there is law. Therefore, if there was no law, then there would be no sin and it can justly be said that sin takes its existence from the law and is therefore enabled to work in us because of the law. So, I would then read Romans 7:5 as being an extension of the act played out in the garden of eden. Man became mortal because of transgression and that transgression still works in us unto death, but not just this "original" sin, but also the suggestion seems to remain that other sins that we commit ourselves contribute to this decay. A question in my mind is that if the simple transgression of Adam and Eve still works within us to make us mortal, to produce a temporal decay, then can the sins of our other progenitors have also contributed to this decay? Not having read the authors cited, perhaps the do take up some of these ideas. Any thoughts? I was wondering the same thing regarding 2 Ne 2. As my jumbled notes on this probably make obvious, I'm not very clear on what "typical" Bible scholars think about this passage (and whole chapter), let alone how a Mormon reading might differ. My plan is to try and study what Bible scholars think about this chapter, then think how 2 Ne 2 might influence how we read this chapter, and finally take up the intriguing JST on this passage. Actually, I think the subsequent verses will help us think about what Paul is up to here, but I haven't really made sense of them yet for myself yet. Onward ho.... --RobertC 19:00, 24 August 2007 (CEST) Rom 7:6. It seems that Paul's purpose in employing this marriage analogy (vv. 1-6) is to argue that the law's grasp does not extend beyond death. In light of the "baptized into [Christ's] death" (Rom 6:3) theme in chapter 6, the idea seems to be that in baptism, the Christian is "delivered from the law" ("discharged from the law" in the NRSV; in Greek, the same verb is used here, katargeo, as in verse 2 to describe the way in which a woman whose husband dies is "loosed from the law"). Rom 7:9. Before we hear the gospel, before we have the law, we are alive, sinless. When the law comes, we die. Here we have a possible explanation for why "gentiles" sometimes seem to weather the consequences of sin better than saints. Pornography is the perfect example. Statistics seem to indicate that rates of addiction are higher in Mormon areas. Undoubtedly, these addictions take a much higher toll than they do for "gentiles." The reason is simple. Where there is a law, there is spiritual death, and all the consequences of that death. Although I believe that even for "gentiles" there are consequences to certain actions that we as Mormons call "sins," these consequences do not include spiritual death on the same level we as LDS members experience. Rom 7:15-25: JST. Verses 15-25 take on a clearer and less awkward meaning in JST (passages not noted in LDS Edition. See The New Testament with the Joseph Smith Translation by Steven and Julie Hite or the edition by Wayment. Rom 7:20. Is Paul advocating personal responsibility away from us by noting our helplessness in the face of the power of sin upon us? In a way, yes, but in a way, no. We don't have to feel so guilty if our flesh is full of lusts, for that is it's natural state. "The natural man is an enemy to God" as King Benjamin said. Paul says nothing good comes from the flesh, which may be only his personal opinion based on his own demons, (i.e. his thorn in the flesh). But it is true that the flesh is an unruly member, no matter how deep our spiritual commitment to the commandments. It is only through Christ that we can hope to achieve freedom through forgiveness. Rom 8:13. This is similar to Christ's idea: "He that findeth his life shall lose it, and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Matthew 10:39 Rom 8:33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?. A beautiful scripture on the pointlessness of criticism and passing judgement on those who have been called and chosen. Sure they may not always be perfect, but when they have already been saved by Christ who made intercession for them, who are we to ever pass judgement upon them? Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 7:18. In the flesh dwelleth no good thing. Paul's attitudes about the flesh are unique among biblical and latter day authors. In our day, the "flesh" is not seen as so perverse. The "flesh" nature of deity is continually asserted, as is the divine nature of the physical intimacy within marriage. Having a "body" is seen as one of the greatest things a spirit can ever attain. So why is the flesh so continually vilified by Paul? Rom 8:20. Who his the "him" in the phrase "him who hath subjected the same"? God? Adam? Someone else? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 8:11-15. For a poetic exploration of a pagan's conversion, see User: Joe Spencer/grace. Rom 8:16-17. Keith R. Edwards, "That They Might Know Thee," Ensign, Nov 2006, pp. 99–101. Elder Edwards said: "Paul wrote that our suffering may give us an opportunity to know the Savior better... Now, lest anyone go looking for hardship and suffering, that is not what is taught. Rather, it is the attitude with which we approach our hardships and trials that allows us to know the Savior better." Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11

Rom 8:26-30

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 5-8 Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 5:2. With the free gift of God's grace,we are invited to rejoice in our salvation. Yet do we need to do anything more? Yes: to glory in tribulation which leads to patience and hope. This could be seen as Paul's version of the "first principles and ordinances of the gospel." First, faith, second suffering through tribulation, third patience or endurance, and fourth hope. Through the process, we finally arrive at the Holy Ghost, just as we do in Joseph Smith's first principles and ordinances. Rom 5:5: Shed abroad. The Greek word ekcheo ("shed abroad") is also used in the sense of "pouring" in the LXX in Num 19:17 and Ex 30:18 in a purification rite. This is also the word used in Matt 26:28 to describe Christ's blood being shed for the sins of others, the same phrasing we find in our sacrament prayers. See also Matt 23:35; Acts 22:20; Rev 16:6. Rom 5:8: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Here Paul notes that Christ suffers for sinners, not saints, or the righteous. "None are rightious" he had said previously. In a sense, Christ is most often with us when we are sinners, suffering and silently enduring with us. Although as Saints, we may feel his presence, yet he is also very present in the life of the sinner, gently trying to mould the life in a way that might promote some kind of healing. But even if not, he is always there, suffering all things with the sinner. Rom 5:13: Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Some believe that the heathen will go to hell. However, Paul clearly states that sin is never imputed unto those without the law. Some might argue, but the Fall of Adam makes all men sinful. Not according to this scripture. Without the law, there is no sin, no condemnation, and thus, no hell. Only mortal death is imputed from the Fall. But spiritual death comes only from our own sins, in the presence of a known law. Paul says even of himself, in Rom 7:9, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Paul was scott free, sinless, alive, and uncondemned before he knew the law. Then when he heard the law, he died. Rom 6:22: Everlasting. The same Greek word (aionios) that is translated as "everlasting" in verse 22 is translated as "eternal" in verse 23. Rom 6:21-23. In these verses Paul wraps up a lengthy argument in which he encourages followers of Christ to become obedient to righteousness. Apparently, there were some Christians who felt that because of grace that it didn't matter what they did with their lives. But Paul unequivocally rejects this idea in verse 15. In the end, he says in verses 21-23, we have two choices: death (verse 21 and 23) that comes from doing iniquity, or holiness (sanctification and purity) with the result of eternal life (verses 22 and 23). Rom 7:1. Compare the usage of this word in Rom 5:21; Rom 6:9; Rom 6:14. Note esp. Rom 6:14 since it seems this chapter is will be taking up the question of what it means to be "not under the law, but under grace." Rom 7:2: Bound by the law. Paul seems to be referring to the law described in Deut 24:1. Rom 7:4: Wherefore ... ye also. The phrasing here draws a comparison between Jewish law as it pertains to a woman whose husband as died. However, this should not be read strictly as an analogy. That is, there are themes from this example that Paul will employ in discussing law—namely, the ideas of law, death, and union (old and new)—however, trying to make one-to-one identification mappings between, say, the first husband and the law, seem to be strained, going beyond Paul's purpose. Rom 7:5: Which were by the law. Although this is a fairly literal translation of the Greek, most modern translations amend this so it makes more sense. Several translations (e.g. NRSV, NASB, NET, NIV, NKJV) add the word "arouse" to make more sense of the phrase. For example, the NRSV for this verse is: "While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death" (emphasis added). In this sense, perhaps the "sinful passions" (NRSV) or "motions of sins" (KJV) are "by the law" because the law, in prohibiting a certain act, makes that very act more attractive. That is, in the very act of prohibiting an act, attention is drawn to that act. However, it should be noted, that although several modern translations seem to take this approach, this is only one of several possible interpretive directions to take. James D. G. Dunn, for example, in his Word Biblical Commentary volume on Romans 1-8, translates this verse as: "For when we were in the flesh the sinful passions which operate through the law were effective in what we are and do so as to bear fruit for death." Here, the phrase "the sinful passions which operate through the law" seems truer to the ambiguity in the Greek in that it allows for this "operat[ion]" of sin through (or by) the law to function in many possible ways, either by arousing interest in sin, or by some other way (Dunn seems to take this in terms of the law acting through us, tying in, perhaps, to the notion of serving the law of sin rather than the law of God; cf. Rom 7:6; Rom 7:25). I would also cite 2 Nephi 2:13(11-13) which suggests a different reading of Romans 7:5 than that suggested by the other authors cited. I further think the larger context also agreeable to this meaning. That is, that sin, being an act of breaking the law, can only exist in a context where there is law. Therefore, if there was no law, then there would be no sin and it can justly be said that sin takes its existence from the law and is therefore enabled to work in us because of the law. So, I would then read Romans 7:5 as being an extension of the act played out in the garden of eden. Man became mortal because of transgression and that transgression still works in us unto death, but not just this "original" sin, but also the suggestion seems to remain that other sins that we commit ourselves contribute to this decay. A question in my mind is that if the simple transgression of Adam and Eve still works within us to make us mortal, to produce a temporal decay, then can the sins of our other progenitors have also contributed to this decay? Not having read the authors cited, perhaps the do take up some of these ideas. Any thoughts? I was wondering the same thing regarding 2 Ne 2. As my jumbled notes on this probably make obvious, I'm not very clear on what "typical" Bible scholars think about this passage (and whole chapter), let alone how a Mormon reading might differ. My plan is to try and study what Bible scholars think about this chapter, then think how 2 Ne 2 might influence how we read this chapter, and finally take up the intriguing JST on this passage. Actually, I think the subsequent verses will help us think about what Paul is up to here, but I haven't really made sense of them yet for myself yet. Onward ho.... --RobertC 19:00, 24 August 2007 (CEST) Rom 7:6. It seems that Paul's purpose in employing this marriage analogy (vv. 1-6) is to argue that the law's grasp does not extend beyond death. In light of the "baptized into [Christ's] death" (Rom 6:3) theme in chapter 6, the idea seems to be that in baptism, the Christian is "delivered from the law" ("discharged from the law" in the NRSV; in Greek, the same verb is used here, katargeo, as in verse 2 to describe the way in which a woman whose husband dies is "loosed from the law"). Rom 7:9. Before we hear the gospel, before we have the law, we are alive, sinless. When the law comes, we die. Here we have a possible explanation for why "gentiles" sometimes seem to weather the consequences of sin better than saints. Pornography is the perfect example. Statistics seem to indicate that rates of addiction are higher in Mormon areas. Undoubtedly, these addictions take a much higher toll than they do for "gentiles." The reason is simple. Where there is a law, there is spiritual death, and all the consequences of that death. Although I believe that even for "gentiles" there are consequences to certain actions that we as Mormons call "sins," these consequences do not include spiritual death on the same level we as LDS members experience. Rom 7:15-25: JST. Verses 15-25 take on a clearer and less awkward meaning in JST (passages not noted in LDS Edition. See The New Testament with the Joseph Smith Translation by Steven and Julie Hite or the edition by Wayment. Rom 7:20. Is Paul advocating personal responsibility away from us by noting our helplessness in the face of the power of sin upon us? In a way, yes, but in a way, no. We don't have to feel so guilty if our flesh is full of lusts, for that is it's natural state. "The natural man is an enemy to God" as King Benjamin said. Paul says nothing good comes from the flesh, which may be only his personal opinion based on his own demons, (i.e. his thorn in the flesh). But it is true that the flesh is an unruly member, no matter how deep our spiritual commitment to the commandments. It is only through Christ that we can hope to achieve freedom through forgiveness. Rom 8:13. This is similar to Christ's idea: "He that findeth his life shall lose it, and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Matthew 10:39 Rom 8:33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?. A beautiful scripture on the pointlessness of criticism and passing judgement on those who have been called and chosen. Sure they may not always be perfect, but when they have already been saved by Christ who made intercession for them, who are we to ever pass judgement upon them? Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 7:18. In the flesh dwelleth no good thing. Paul's attitudes about the flesh are unique among biblical and latter day authors. In our day, the "flesh" is not seen as so perverse. The "flesh" nature of deity is continually asserted, as is the divine nature of the physical intimacy within marriage. Having a "body" is seen as one of the greatest things a spirit can ever attain. So why is the flesh so continually vilified by Paul? Rom 8:20. Who his the "him" in the phrase "him who hath subjected the same"? God? Adam? Someone else? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 8:11-15. For a poetic exploration of a pagan's conversion, see User: Joe Spencer/grace. Rom 8:16-17. Keith R. Edwards, "That They Might Know Thee," Ensign, Nov 2006, pp. 99–101. Elder Edwards said: "Paul wrote that our suffering may give us an opportunity to know the Savior better... Now, lest anyone go looking for hardship and suffering, that is not what is taught. Rather, it is the attitude with which we approach our hardships and trials that allows us to know the Savior better." Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11

Rom 8:31-35

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 5-8 Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 5:2. With the free gift of God's grace,we are invited to rejoice in our salvation. Yet do we need to do anything more? Yes: to glory in tribulation which leads to patience and hope. This could be seen as Paul's version of the "first principles and ordinances of the gospel." First, faith, second suffering through tribulation, third patience or endurance, and fourth hope. Through the process, we finally arrive at the Holy Ghost, just as we do in Joseph Smith's first principles and ordinances. Rom 5:5: Shed abroad. The Greek word ekcheo ("shed abroad") is also used in the sense of "pouring" in the LXX in Num 19:17 and Ex 30:18 in a purification rite. This is also the word used in Matt 26:28 to describe Christ's blood being shed for the sins of others, the same phrasing we find in our sacrament prayers. See also Matt 23:35; Acts 22:20; Rev 16:6. Rom 5:8: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Here Paul notes that Christ suffers for sinners, not saints, or the righteous. "None are rightious" he had said previously. In a sense, Christ is most often with us when we are sinners, suffering and silently enduring with us. Although as Saints, we may feel his presence, yet he is also very present in the life of the sinner, gently trying to mould the life in a way that might promote some kind of healing. But even if not, he is always there, suffering all things with the sinner. Rom 5:13: Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Some believe that the heathen will go to hell. However, Paul clearly states that sin is never imputed unto those without the law. Some might argue, but the Fall of Adam makes all men sinful. Not according to this scripture. Without the law, there is no sin, no condemnation, and thus, no hell. Only mortal death is imputed from the Fall. But spiritual death comes only from our own sins, in the presence of a known law. Paul says even of himself, in Rom 7:9, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Paul was scott free, sinless, alive, and uncondemned before he knew the law. Then when he heard the law, he died. Rom 6:22: Everlasting. The same Greek word (aionios) that is translated as "everlasting" in verse 22 is translated as "eternal" in verse 23. Rom 6:21-23. In these verses Paul wraps up a lengthy argument in which he encourages followers of Christ to become obedient to righteousness. Apparently, there were some Christians who felt that because of grace that it didn't matter what they did with their lives. But Paul unequivocally rejects this idea in verse 15. In the end, he says in verses 21-23, we have two choices: death (verse 21 and 23) that comes from doing iniquity, or holiness (sanctification and purity) with the result of eternal life (verses 22 and 23). Rom 7:1. Compare the usage of this word in Rom 5:21; Rom 6:9; Rom 6:14. Note esp. Rom 6:14 since it seems this chapter is will be taking up the question of what it means to be "not under the law, but under grace." Rom 7:2: Bound by the law. Paul seems to be referring to the law described in Deut 24:1. Rom 7:4: Wherefore ... ye also. The phrasing here draws a comparison between Jewish law as it pertains to a woman whose husband as died. However, this should not be read strictly as an analogy. That is, there are themes from this example that Paul will employ in discussing law—namely, the ideas of law, death, and union (old and new)—however, trying to make one-to-one identification mappings between, say, the first husband and the law, seem to be strained, going beyond Paul's purpose. Rom 7:5: Which were by the law. Although this is a fairly literal translation of the Greek, most modern translations amend this so it makes more sense. Several translations (e.g. NRSV, NASB, NET, NIV, NKJV) add the word "arouse" to make more sense of the phrase. For example, the NRSV for this verse is: "While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death" (emphasis added). In this sense, perhaps the "sinful passions" (NRSV) or "motions of sins" (KJV) are "by the law" because the law, in prohibiting a certain act, makes that very act more attractive. That is, in the very act of prohibiting an act, attention is drawn to that act. However, it should be noted, that although several modern translations seem to take this approach, this is only one of several possible interpretive directions to take. James D. G. Dunn, for example, in his Word Biblical Commentary volume on Romans 1-8, translates this verse as: "For when we were in the flesh the sinful passions which operate through the law were effective in what we are and do so as to bear fruit for death." Here, the phrase "the sinful passions which operate through the law" seems truer to the ambiguity in the Greek in that it allows for this "operat[ion]" of sin through (or by) the law to function in many possible ways, either by arousing interest in sin, or by some other way (Dunn seems to take this in terms of the law acting through us, tying in, perhaps, to the notion of serving the law of sin rather than the law of God; cf. Rom 7:6; Rom 7:25). I would also cite 2 Nephi 2:13(11-13) which suggests a different reading of Romans 7:5 than that suggested by the other authors cited. I further think the larger context also agreeable to this meaning. That is, that sin, being an act of breaking the law, can only exist in a context where there is law. Therefore, if there was no law, then there would be no sin and it can justly be said that sin takes its existence from the law and is therefore enabled to work in us because of the law. So, I would then read Romans 7:5 as being an extension of the act played out in the garden of eden. Man became mortal because of transgression and that transgression still works in us unto death, but not just this "original" sin, but also the suggestion seems to remain that other sins that we commit ourselves contribute to this decay. A question in my mind is that if the simple transgression of Adam and Eve still works within us to make us mortal, to produce a temporal decay, then can the sins of our other progenitors have also contributed to this decay? Not having read the authors cited, perhaps the do take up some of these ideas. Any thoughts? I was wondering the same thing regarding 2 Ne 2. As my jumbled notes on this probably make obvious, I'm not very clear on what "typical" Bible scholars think about this passage (and whole chapter), let alone how a Mormon reading might differ. My plan is to try and study what Bible scholars think about this chapter, then think how 2 Ne 2 might influence how we read this chapter, and finally take up the intriguing JST on this passage. Actually, I think the subsequent verses will help us think about what Paul is up to here, but I haven't really made sense of them yet for myself yet. Onward ho.... --RobertC 19:00, 24 August 2007 (CEST) Rom 7:6. It seems that Paul's purpose in employing this marriage analogy (vv. 1-6) is to argue that the law's grasp does not extend beyond death. In light of the "baptized into [Christ's] death" (Rom 6:3) theme in chapter 6, the idea seems to be that in baptism, the Christian is "delivered from the law" ("discharged from the law" in the NRSV; in Greek, the same verb is used here, katargeo, as in verse 2 to describe the way in which a woman whose husband dies is "loosed from the law"). Rom 7:9. Before we hear the gospel, before we have the law, we are alive, sinless. When the law comes, we die. Here we have a possible explanation for why "gentiles" sometimes seem to weather the consequences of sin better than saints. Pornography is the perfect example. Statistics seem to indicate that rates of addiction are higher in Mormon areas. Undoubtedly, these addictions take a much higher toll than they do for "gentiles." The reason is simple. Where there is a law, there is spiritual death, and all the consequences of that death. Although I believe that even for "gentiles" there are consequences to certain actions that we as Mormons call "sins," these consequences do not include spiritual death on the same level we as LDS members experience. Rom 7:15-25: JST. Verses 15-25 take on a clearer and less awkward meaning in JST (passages not noted in LDS Edition. See The New Testament with the Joseph Smith Translation by Steven and Julie Hite or the edition by Wayment. Rom 7:20. Is Paul advocating personal responsibility away from us by noting our helplessness in the face of the power of sin upon us? In a way, yes, but in a way, no. We don't have to feel so guilty if our flesh is full of lusts, for that is it's natural state. "The natural man is an enemy to God" as King Benjamin said. Paul says nothing good comes from the flesh, which may be only his personal opinion based on his own demons, (i.e. his thorn in the flesh). But it is true that the flesh is an unruly member, no matter how deep our spiritual commitment to the commandments. It is only through Christ that we can hope to achieve freedom through forgiveness. Rom 8:13. This is similar to Christ's idea: "He that findeth his life shall lose it, and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Matthew 10:39 Rom 8:33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?. A beautiful scripture on the pointlessness of criticism and passing judgement on those who have been called and chosen. Sure they may not always be perfect, but when they have already been saved by Christ who made intercession for them, who are we to ever pass judgement upon them? Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 7:18. In the flesh dwelleth no good thing. Paul's attitudes about the flesh are unique among biblical and latter day authors. In our day, the "flesh" is not seen as so perverse. The "flesh" nature of deity is continually asserted, as is the divine nature of the physical intimacy within marriage. Having a "body" is seen as one of the greatest things a spirit can ever attain. So why is the flesh so continually vilified by Paul? Rom 8:20. Who his the "him" in the phrase "him who hath subjected the same"? God? Adam? Someone else? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 8:11-15. For a poetic exploration of a pagan's conversion, see User: Joe Spencer/grace. Rom 8:16-17. Keith R. Edwards, "That They Might Know Thee," Ensign, Nov 2006, pp. 99–101. Elder Edwards said: "Paul wrote that our suffering may give us an opportunity to know the Savior better... Now, lest anyone go looking for hardship and suffering, that is not what is taught. Rather, it is the attitude with which we approach our hardships and trials that allows us to know the Savior better." Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11

Rom 8:36-39

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 5-8 Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 5:2. With the free gift of God's grace,we are invited to rejoice in our salvation. Yet do we need to do anything more? Yes: to glory in tribulation which leads to patience and hope. This could be seen as Paul's version of the "first principles and ordinances of the gospel." First, faith, second suffering through tribulation, third patience or endurance, and fourth hope. Through the process, we finally arrive at the Holy Ghost, just as we do in Joseph Smith's first principles and ordinances. Rom 5:5: Shed abroad. The Greek word ekcheo ("shed abroad") is also used in the sense of "pouring" in the LXX in Num 19:17 and Ex 30:18 in a purification rite. This is also the word used in Matt 26:28 to describe Christ's blood being shed for the sins of others, the same phrasing we find in our sacrament prayers. See also Matt 23:35; Acts 22:20; Rev 16:6. Rom 5:8: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Here Paul notes that Christ suffers for sinners, not saints, or the righteous. "None are rightious" he had said previously. In a sense, Christ is most often with us when we are sinners, suffering and silently enduring with us. Although as Saints, we may feel his presence, yet he is also very present in the life of the sinner, gently trying to mould the life in a way that might promote some kind of healing. But even if not, he is always there, suffering all things with the sinner. Rom 5:13: Sin is not imputed when there is no law. Some believe that the heathen will go to hell. However, Paul clearly states that sin is never imputed unto those without the law. Some might argue, but the Fall of Adam makes all men sinful. Not according to this scripture. Without the law, there is no sin, no condemnation, and thus, no hell. Only mortal death is imputed from the Fall. But spiritual death comes only from our own sins, in the presence of a known law. Paul says even of himself, in Rom 7:9, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Paul was scott free, sinless, alive, and uncondemned before he knew the law. Then when he heard the law, he died. Rom 6:22: Everlasting. The same Greek word (aionios) that is translated as "everlasting" in verse 22 is translated as "eternal" in verse 23. Rom 6:21-23. In these verses Paul wraps up a lengthy argument in which he encourages followers of Christ to become obedient to righteousness. Apparently, there were some Christians who felt that because of grace that it didn't matter what they did with their lives. But Paul unequivocally rejects this idea in verse 15. In the end, he says in verses 21-23, we have two choices: death (verse 21 and 23) that comes from doing iniquity, or holiness (sanctification and purity) with the result of eternal life (verses 22 and 23). Rom 7:1. Compare the usage of this word in Rom 5:21; Rom 6:9; Rom 6:14. Note esp. Rom 6:14 since it seems this chapter is will be taking up the question of what it means to be "not under the law, but under grace." Rom 7:2: Bound by the law. Paul seems to be referring to the law described in Deut 24:1. Rom 7:4: Wherefore ... ye also. The phrasing here draws a comparison between Jewish law as it pertains to a woman whose husband as died. However, this should not be read strictly as an analogy. That is, there are themes from this example that Paul will employ in discussing law—namely, the ideas of law, death, and union (old and new)—however, trying to make one-to-one identification mappings between, say, the first husband and the law, seem to be strained, going beyond Paul's purpose. Rom 7:5: Which were by the law. Although this is a fairly literal translation of the Greek, most modern translations amend this so it makes more sense. Several translations (e.g. NRSV, NASB, NET, NIV, NKJV) add the word "arouse" to make more sense of the phrase. For example, the NRSV for this verse is: "While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death" (emphasis added). In this sense, perhaps the "sinful passions" (NRSV) or "motions of sins" (KJV) are "by the law" because the law, in prohibiting a certain act, makes that very act more attractive. That is, in the very act of prohibiting an act, attention is drawn to that act. However, it should be noted, that although several modern translations seem to take this approach, this is only one of several possible interpretive directions to take. James D. G. Dunn, for example, in his Word Biblical Commentary volume on Romans 1-8, translates this verse as: "For when we were in the flesh the sinful passions which operate through the law were effective in what we are and do so as to bear fruit for death." Here, the phrase "the sinful passions which operate through the law" seems truer to the ambiguity in the Greek in that it allows for this "operat[ion]" of sin through (or by) the law to function in many possible ways, either by arousing interest in sin, or by some other way (Dunn seems to take this in terms of the law acting through us, tying in, perhaps, to the notion of serving the law of sin rather than the law of God; cf. Rom 7:6; Rom 7:25). I would also cite 2 Nephi 2:13(11-13) which suggests a different reading of Romans 7:5 than that suggested by the other authors cited. I further think the larger context also agreeable to this meaning. That is, that sin, being an act of breaking the law, can only exist in a context where there is law. Therefore, if there was no law, then there would be no sin and it can justly be said that sin takes its existence from the law and is therefore enabled to work in us because of the law. So, I would then read Romans 7:5 as being an extension of the act played out in the garden of eden. Man became mortal because of transgression and that transgression still works in us unto death, but not just this "original" sin, but also the suggestion seems to remain that other sins that we commit ourselves contribute to this decay. A question in my mind is that if the simple transgression of Adam and Eve still works within us to make us mortal, to produce a temporal decay, then can the sins of our other progenitors have also contributed to this decay? Not having read the authors cited, perhaps the do take up some of these ideas. Any thoughts? I was wondering the same thing regarding 2 Ne 2. As my jumbled notes on this probably make obvious, I'm not very clear on what "typical" Bible scholars think about this passage (and whole chapter), let alone how a Mormon reading might differ. My plan is to try and study what Bible scholars think about this chapter, then think how 2 Ne 2 might influence how we read this chapter, and finally take up the intriguing JST on this passage. Actually, I think the subsequent verses will help us think about what Paul is up to here, but I haven't really made sense of them yet for myself yet. Onward ho.... --RobertC 19:00, 24 August 2007 (CEST) Rom 7:6. It seems that Paul's purpose in employing this marriage analogy (vv. 1-6) is to argue that the law's grasp does not extend beyond death. In light of the "baptized into [Christ's] death" (Rom 6:3) theme in chapter 6, the idea seems to be that in baptism, the Christian is "delivered from the law" ("discharged from the law" in the NRSV; in Greek, the same verb is used here, katargeo, as in verse 2 to describe the way in which a woman whose husband dies is "loosed from the law"). Rom 7:9. Before we hear the gospel, before we have the law, we are alive, sinless. When the law comes, we die. Here we have a possible explanation for why "gentiles" sometimes seem to weather the consequences of sin better than saints. Pornography is the perfect example. Statistics seem to indicate that rates of addiction are higher in Mormon areas. Undoubtedly, these addictions take a much higher toll than they do for "gentiles." The reason is simple. Where there is a law, there is spiritual death, and all the consequences of that death. Although I believe that even for "gentiles" there are consequences to certain actions that we as Mormons call "sins," these consequences do not include spiritual death on the same level we as LDS members experience. Rom 7:15-25: JST. Verses 15-25 take on a clearer and less awkward meaning in JST (passages not noted in LDS Edition. See The New Testament with the Joseph Smith Translation by Steven and Julie Hite or the edition by Wayment. Rom 7:20. Is Paul advocating personal responsibility away from us by noting our helplessness in the face of the power of sin upon us? In a way, yes, but in a way, no. We don't have to feel so guilty if our flesh is full of lusts, for that is it's natural state. "The natural man is an enemy to God" as King Benjamin said. Paul says nothing good comes from the flesh, which may be only his personal opinion based on his own demons, (i.e. his thorn in the flesh). But it is true that the flesh is an unruly member, no matter how deep our spiritual commitment to the commandments. It is only through Christ that we can hope to achieve freedom through forgiveness. Rom 8:13. This is similar to Christ's idea: "He that findeth his life shall lose it, and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Matthew 10:39 Rom 8:33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?. A beautiful scripture on the pointlessness of criticism and passing judgement on those who have been called and chosen. Sure they may not always be perfect, but when they have already been saved by Christ who made intercession for them, who are we to ever pass judgement upon them? Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 7:18. In the flesh dwelleth no good thing. Paul's attitudes about the flesh are unique among biblical and latter day authors. In our day, the "flesh" is not seen as so perverse. The "flesh" nature of deity is continually asserted, as is the divine nature of the physical intimacy within marriage. Having a "body" is seen as one of the greatest things a spirit can ever attain. So why is the flesh so continually vilified by Paul? Rom 8:20. Who his the "him" in the phrase "him who hath subjected the same"? God? Adam? Someone else? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 8:11-15. For a poetic exploration of a pagan's conversion, see User: Joe Spencer/grace. Rom 8:16-17. Keith R. Edwards, "That They Might Know Thee," Ensign, Nov 2006, pp. 99–101. Elder Edwards said: "Paul wrote that our suffering may give us an opportunity to know the Savior better... Now, lest anyone go looking for hardship and suffering, that is not what is taught. Rather, it is the attitude with which we approach our hardships and trials that allows us to know the Savior better." Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 1b-4                      Next page: Chapters 9-11

Rom 9:1-5

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 9-11 Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:3. Paul is about to embark upon a complicated explanation of why the Jews are not automatically saved with the children of God by virtue of the promises to their fathers. He prefaces this by saying "I wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren." This he says, perhaps to show in a passionate and dramatic way, how deeply he loves and identifies with his Jewish brethren, so deeply that he'd be willing to be cursed for their sake. This is perhaps similar to Joseph Smith saying he would be willing to go to hell, just for the sake of Emma whom he loved so deeply. Rom 9:6: Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. Paul sets out to counter an argument made by the Jews that they are God's chosen people even if they don't believe in Christ. This is problematic, because the Jews have clearly been given so many special promises from God. However Paul says that being born in the covenant, doesn't nescessarilly make you an heir to the promises. He uses the example of Esau. As a blood descendant of Abraham, wasn't he entitled to the promises of the covenant? No, says Paul, and explains it later in verses 11-15 Rom 9:11-15. Here Paul explains why some people, like Esau, are not included as the true children of Israel. As we noted in the above verses. Paul is countering an argument that practicing Jews, who don't believe in Christ are automatically saved, by virtue of their blood. Paul believes that only those who believe on Christ are saved, not those who are born into a specific group, or who obey the works of the law. To make this argument, Paul is trying to chip away at the foundations of the Jewish theory of superiority by their blood birth. He uses the example of Jacob and Esau. Jacob was younger, but he was chosen by God as the birthright son. Why? Not because of any superiority, or greater works of Isaac. "not of works, but of him that calleth." verse 11. While it is true that Esau turned out to be more wicked, selling his birthright for a bowl of porridge, etc., Paul is saying that God chose Jacob only because that is what He wanted to do, and not because Isaac was more righteous. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." These 5 verses form the foundation of the Christian doctrine of pre-destination. This is because some Christians take these scriptures and apply them as a type for the salvation of every individual. However, Paul was only giving the example of why Esau was not included in the covenant people of Israel who later received the temple ordinances and priesthood. However, we know from many other Pauline scriptures, that those ordinances mean nothing, and that only a belief in Christ is a guarantee of Salvation. With that in mind, as LDS readers, we can rest assured that Jacob, Esau, and everyone else, must first believe in Christ before they can be saved. For Esau, we can assume this came in the Spirit World, when Christ visited the spirits in prison. There is no reason to assume that Esau was not given full salvation in the Celestial Kingdom if he accepted the gospel in it's fulness when given the chance. His rejection from the house of Israel means nothing, and ultimately, Isaac's inclusion also means nothing without belief in Christ. Pre-destination is only a true doctrine in that it determines the nature of our earthly state and calling, or birth into a particular family, or our opportunities to be given certain gifts and opportunities on earth. However, pre-destination does not apply to ultimate salvation. Only our choice to believe in Christ will determine our ultimate salvation according to Paul. Rom 9:11. "Being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil..." Many LDS believe that our standing in this life, even our circumstances are somewhat the result of our deeds in the pre-earth life. While this may be true to a lesser or greater extent, Paul seems to indicate in these scriptures that he believes otherwise. "Neither having done any good or evil...It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (verse 11, 16) In other words, God choses us for various callings and purposes, not based on our works, either in this life or past lives, but he choses us based on his own purposes. This Rom 9:16-20. Here Paul continues to elaborate and explain why God choses some over others. As noted in previous commentary. This does not apply to ultimate salvation. God is not pre-destining us for Salvation or Damnation. God is predestining us for various callings, missions, families, etc, pertaining to the mortal world. Not only does God pre-destine the family we are born into, he also is partially responsible for our very natures. (Whom he will, he hardeneth) verse 18. The obvious problem with this argument is that that we can say, "well if God made me this way, why can he turn around and condemn me for being this way?" (Why doth he yet find fault?) verse 19. Paul reasons that God should never be questioned because he IS God. "Who art thou that repliest against God?" Verse 20. Nevertheless, Paul also gives us a partial explanation later in the chapter. God doesn't want us to glory in our own works, but only in his grace, the grace available both to Jew and Gentile. The seeming randomness of material blessings and circumstances helps reinforce the truth that works are not responsible for the various divisions we see around us. Paul's argument that God is responsible for our "nature" is a thorny one, but one that merits some discussion. In the scientific world, human behavior is seen as either a response to "nature or nurture," our DNA, or our environment and upbringing. As LDS, we know that there is a third influence upon human behavior: the free-will of our eternal spirit. However, we also know that "nature and nurture" play an important role in our behavior. Even in the scriptures we are admonished to "bring up a child in the way he should go, and when he is older he will not depart from it." We know from science and from rational observation, that much of our individual behavior is the result of "nature and nurture," elements that are both beyond our individual control. Although the free will of our eternal spirit does have remarkable power, it's power for good or ill, is severely limited by the mortal circumstances we are thrust into in this life. Thus as Paul says, God is responsible for much of our nature and environment. We will be judged for the light that is given to us. Where little is given, little is required. Rom 9:22. Another troublesome scripture from the standpoint of pre-destination. Paul is saying that God wants to demonstrate his wrath and his power by damning those "fitted to destruction." This sounds dangerously like God has created some people merely to become the subjects of damnation. However, it is also important to note that God also "endures with longsuffering" these same souls. It is a hard scripture to adequately grasp, because it speaks of the wrath and the longsuffering of God in the same sentence. Will God be merciful to those he has "fitted to destruction" or will he damn them to hell? It is hard to answer this question given the obscurity of the phrasing. On just such obscure scriptures, Christiandom has argued for centuries over the concept of "pre-destination." From an LDS standpoint, it can be argued that God indeed has prepared some people to go to hell, which we call a temporary spirit prison. Their ultimate salvation however, is still in their own hands, as they can always embrace the gospel beyond the veil. God is responsible, or at least allows many innocent children to be born into families that raise them up unto wickedness, "fitted to destruction" if you will. However, it is the beauty of our doctrine that God has revealed to Joseph Smith that there is a way out of hell for all those who didn't have the opportunity to accept the gospel in mortal life. Rom 10:9-10. Verse 9 is a classic scripture used by Evangelicals to support the idea of salvation by confession alone, without works. LDS readers might counter that verse 10 qualifies Paul's statement by adding "believeth unto righteousness" suggesting that only a belief that leads to future righteousness can be considered sufficient for salvation. Interestingly many translations of verse 10 (see related links) leave out the idea that righteousness is included in the fruit of belief. Rom 10:13-15. Here we have a beautiful Climax of words: Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? Rom 11:8. See Isa 6:9ff. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:22: Corporate predestination? See this post by LXXLuthor at the FPR blog. Rom 10:10. See various [1] for a number of different translations of verse 10. Rom 11:6. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of grace, faith, and works. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a

Rom 9:6-10

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 9-11 Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:3. Paul is about to embark upon a complicated explanation of why the Jews are not automatically saved with the children of God by virtue of the promises to their fathers. He prefaces this by saying "I wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren." This he says, perhaps to show in a passionate and dramatic way, how deeply he loves and identifies with his Jewish brethren, so deeply that he'd be willing to be cursed for their sake. This is perhaps similar to Joseph Smith saying he would be willing to go to hell, just for the sake of Emma whom he loved so deeply. Rom 9:6: Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. Paul sets out to counter an argument made by the Jews that they are God's chosen people even if they don't believe in Christ. This is problematic, because the Jews have clearly been given so many special promises from God. However Paul says that being born in the covenant, doesn't nescessarilly make you an heir to the promises. He uses the example of Esau. As a blood descendant of Abraham, wasn't he entitled to the promises of the covenant? No, says Paul, and explains it later in verses 11-15 Rom 9:11-15. Here Paul explains why some people, like Esau, are not included as the true children of Israel. As we noted in the above verses. Paul is countering an argument that practicing Jews, who don't believe in Christ are automatically saved, by virtue of their blood. Paul believes that only those who believe on Christ are saved, not those who are born into a specific group, or who obey the works of the law. To make this argument, Paul is trying to chip away at the foundations of the Jewish theory of superiority by their blood birth. He uses the example of Jacob and Esau. Jacob was younger, but he was chosen by God as the birthright son. Why? Not because of any superiority, or greater works of Isaac. "not of works, but of him that calleth." verse 11. While it is true that Esau turned out to be more wicked, selling his birthright for a bowl of porridge, etc., Paul is saying that God chose Jacob only because that is what He wanted to do, and not because Isaac was more righteous. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." These 5 verses form the foundation of the Christian doctrine of pre-destination. This is because some Christians take these scriptures and apply them as a type for the salvation of every individual. However, Paul was only giving the example of why Esau was not included in the covenant people of Israel who later received the temple ordinances and priesthood. However, we know from many other Pauline scriptures, that those ordinances mean nothing, and that only a belief in Christ is a guarantee of Salvation. With that in mind, as LDS readers, we can rest assured that Jacob, Esau, and everyone else, must first believe in Christ before they can be saved. For Esau, we can assume this came in the Spirit World, when Christ visited the spirits in prison. There is no reason to assume that Esau was not given full salvation in the Celestial Kingdom if he accepted the gospel in it's fulness when given the chance. His rejection from the house of Israel means nothing, and ultimately, Isaac's inclusion also means nothing without belief in Christ. Pre-destination is only a true doctrine in that it determines the nature of our earthly state and calling, or birth into a particular family, or our opportunities to be given certain gifts and opportunities on earth. However, pre-destination does not apply to ultimate salvation. Only our choice to believe in Christ will determine our ultimate salvation according to Paul. Rom 9:11. "Being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil..." Many LDS believe that our standing in this life, even our circumstances are somewhat the result of our deeds in the pre-earth life. While this may be true to a lesser or greater extent, Paul seems to indicate in these scriptures that he believes otherwise. "Neither having done any good or evil...It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (verse 11, 16) In other words, God choses us for various callings and purposes, not based on our works, either in this life or past lives, but he choses us based on his own purposes. This Rom 9:16-20. Here Paul continues to elaborate and explain why God choses some over others. As noted in previous commentary. This does not apply to ultimate salvation. God is not pre-destining us for Salvation or Damnation. God is predestining us for various callings, missions, families, etc, pertaining to the mortal world. Not only does God pre-destine the family we are born into, he also is partially responsible for our very natures. (Whom he will, he hardeneth) verse 18. The obvious problem with this argument is that that we can say, "well if God made me this way, why can he turn around and condemn me for being this way?" (Why doth he yet find fault?) verse 19. Paul reasons that God should never be questioned because he IS God. "Who art thou that repliest against God?" Verse 20. Nevertheless, Paul also gives us a partial explanation later in the chapter. God doesn't want us to glory in our own works, but only in his grace, the grace available both to Jew and Gentile. The seeming randomness of material blessings and circumstances helps reinforce the truth that works are not responsible for the various divisions we see around us. Paul's argument that God is responsible for our "nature" is a thorny one, but one that merits some discussion. In the scientific world, human behavior is seen as either a response to "nature or nurture," our DNA, or our environment and upbringing. As LDS, we know that there is a third influence upon human behavior: the free-will of our eternal spirit. However, we also know that "nature and nurture" play an important role in our behavior. Even in the scriptures we are admonished to "bring up a child in the way he should go, and when he is older he will not depart from it." We know from science and from rational observation, that much of our individual behavior is the result of "nature and nurture," elements that are both beyond our individual control. Although the free will of our eternal spirit does have remarkable power, it's power for good or ill, is severely limited by the mortal circumstances we are thrust into in this life. Thus as Paul says, God is responsible for much of our nature and environment. We will be judged for the light that is given to us. Where little is given, little is required. Rom 9:22. Another troublesome scripture from the standpoint of pre-destination. Paul is saying that God wants to demonstrate his wrath and his power by damning those "fitted to destruction." This sounds dangerously like God has created some people merely to become the subjects of damnation. However, it is also important to note that God also "endures with longsuffering" these same souls. It is a hard scripture to adequately grasp, because it speaks of the wrath and the longsuffering of God in the same sentence. Will God be merciful to those he has "fitted to destruction" or will he damn them to hell? It is hard to answer this question given the obscurity of the phrasing. On just such obscure scriptures, Christiandom has argued for centuries over the concept of "pre-destination." From an LDS standpoint, it can be argued that God indeed has prepared some people to go to hell, which we call a temporary spirit prison. Their ultimate salvation however, is still in their own hands, as they can always embrace the gospel beyond the veil. God is responsible, or at least allows many innocent children to be born into families that raise them up unto wickedness, "fitted to destruction" if you will. However, it is the beauty of our doctrine that God has revealed to Joseph Smith that there is a way out of hell for all those who didn't have the opportunity to accept the gospel in mortal life. Rom 10:9-10. Verse 9 is a classic scripture used by Evangelicals to support the idea of salvation by confession alone, without works. LDS readers might counter that verse 10 qualifies Paul's statement by adding "believeth unto righteousness" suggesting that only a belief that leads to future righteousness can be considered sufficient for salvation. Interestingly many translations of verse 10 (see related links) leave out the idea that righteousness is included in the fruit of belief. Rom 10:13-15. Here we have a beautiful Climax of words: Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? Rom 11:8. See Isa 6:9ff. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:22: Corporate predestination? See this post by LXXLuthor at the FPR blog. Rom 10:10. See various [2] for a number of different translations of verse 10. Rom 11:6. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of grace, faith, and works. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a

Rom 9:11-15

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 9-11 Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:3. Paul is about to embark upon a complicated explanation of why the Jews are not automatically saved with the children of God by virtue of the promises to their fathers. He prefaces this by saying "I wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren." This he says, perhaps to show in a passionate and dramatic way, how deeply he loves and identifies with his Jewish brethren, so deeply that he'd be willing to be cursed for their sake. This is perhaps similar to Joseph Smith saying he would be willing to go to hell, just for the sake of Emma whom he loved so deeply. Rom 9:6: Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. Paul sets out to counter an argument made by the Jews that they are God's chosen people even if they don't believe in Christ. This is problematic, because the Jews have clearly been given so many special promises from God. However Paul says that being born in the covenant, doesn't nescessarilly make you an heir to the promises. He uses the example of Esau. As a blood descendant of Abraham, wasn't he entitled to the promises of the covenant? No, says Paul, and explains it later in verses 11-15 Rom 9:11-15. Here Paul explains why some people, like Esau, are not included as the true children of Israel. As we noted in the above verses. Paul is countering an argument that practicing Jews, who don't believe in Christ are automatically saved, by virtue of their blood. Paul believes that only those who believe on Christ are saved, not those who are born into a specific group, or who obey the works of the law. To make this argument, Paul is trying to chip away at the foundations of the Jewish theory of superiority by their blood birth. He uses the example of Jacob and Esau. Jacob was younger, but he was chosen by God as the birthright son. Why? Not because of any superiority, or greater works of Isaac. "not of works, but of him that calleth." verse 11. While it is true that Esau turned out to be more wicked, selling his birthright for a bowl of porridge, etc., Paul is saying that God chose Jacob only because that is what He wanted to do, and not because Isaac was more righteous. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." These 5 verses form the foundation of the Christian doctrine of pre-destination. This is because some Christians take these scriptures and apply them as a type for the salvation of every individual. However, Paul was only giving the example of why Esau was not included in the covenant people of Israel who later received the temple ordinances and priesthood. However, we know from many other Pauline scriptures, that those ordinances mean nothing, and that only a belief in Christ is a guarantee of Salvation. With that in mind, as LDS readers, we can rest assured that Jacob, Esau, and everyone else, must first believe in Christ before they can be saved. For Esau, we can assume this came in the Spirit World, when Christ visited the spirits in prison. There is no reason to assume that Esau was not given full salvation in the Celestial Kingdom if he accepted the gospel in it's fulness when given the chance. His rejection from the house of Israel means nothing, and ultimately, Isaac's inclusion also means nothing without belief in Christ. Pre-destination is only a true doctrine in that it determines the nature of our earthly state and calling, or birth into a particular family, or our opportunities to be given certain gifts and opportunities on earth. However, pre-destination does not apply to ultimate salvation. Only our choice to believe in Christ will determine our ultimate salvation according to Paul. Rom 9:11. "Being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil..." Many LDS believe that our standing in this life, even our circumstances are somewhat the result of our deeds in the pre-earth life. While this may be true to a lesser or greater extent, Paul seems to indicate in these scriptures that he believes otherwise. "Neither having done any good or evil...It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (verse 11, 16) In other words, God choses us for various callings and purposes, not based on our works, either in this life or past lives, but he choses us based on his own purposes. This Rom 9:16-20. Here Paul continues to elaborate and explain why God choses some over others. As noted in previous commentary. This does not apply to ultimate salvation. God is not pre-destining us for Salvation or Damnation. God is predestining us for various callings, missions, families, etc, pertaining to the mortal world. Not only does God pre-destine the family we are born into, he also is partially responsible for our very natures. (Whom he will, he hardeneth) verse 18. The obvious problem with this argument is that that we can say, "well if God made me this way, why can he turn around and condemn me for being this way?" (Why doth he yet find fault?) verse 19. Paul reasons that God should never be questioned because he IS God. "Who art thou that repliest against God?" Verse 20. Nevertheless, Paul also gives us a partial explanation later in the chapter. God doesn't want us to glory in our own works, but only in his grace, the grace available both to Jew and Gentile. The seeming randomness of material blessings and circumstances helps reinforce the truth that works are not responsible for the various divisions we see around us. Paul's argument that God is responsible for our "nature" is a thorny one, but one that merits some discussion. In the scientific world, human behavior is seen as either a response to "nature or nurture," our DNA, or our environment and upbringing. As LDS, we know that there is a third influence upon human behavior: the free-will of our eternal spirit. However, we also know that "nature and nurture" play an important role in our behavior. Even in the scriptures we are admonished to "bring up a child in the way he should go, and when he is older he will not depart from it." We know from science and from rational observation, that much of our individual behavior is the result of "nature and nurture," elements that are both beyond our individual control. Although the free will of our eternal spirit does have remarkable power, it's power for good or ill, is severely limited by the mortal circumstances we are thrust into in this life. Thus as Paul says, God is responsible for much of our nature and environment. We will be judged for the light that is given to us. Where little is given, little is required. Rom 9:22. Another troublesome scripture from the standpoint of pre-destination. Paul is saying that God wants to demonstrate his wrath and his power by damning those "fitted to destruction." This sounds dangerously like God has created some people merely to become the subjects of damnation. However, it is also important to note that God also "endures with longsuffering" these same souls. It is a hard scripture to adequately grasp, because it speaks of the wrath and the longsuffering of God in the same sentence. Will God be merciful to those he has "fitted to destruction" or will he damn them to hell? It is hard to answer this question given the obscurity of the phrasing. On just such obscure scriptures, Christiandom has argued for centuries over the concept of "pre-destination." From an LDS standpoint, it can be argued that God indeed has prepared some people to go to hell, which we call a temporary spirit prison. Their ultimate salvation however, is still in their own hands, as they can always embrace the gospel beyond the veil. God is responsible, or at least allows many innocent children to be born into families that raise them up unto wickedness, "fitted to destruction" if you will. However, it is the beauty of our doctrine that God has revealed to Joseph Smith that there is a way out of hell for all those who didn't have the opportunity to accept the gospel in mortal life. Rom 10:9-10. Verse 9 is a classic scripture used by Evangelicals to support the idea of salvation by confession alone, without works. LDS readers might counter that verse 10 qualifies Paul's statement by adding "believeth unto righteousness" suggesting that only a belief that leads to future righteousness can be considered sufficient for salvation. Interestingly many translations of verse 10 (see related links) leave out the idea that righteousness is included in the fruit of belief. Rom 10:13-15. Here we have a beautiful Climax of words: Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? Rom 11:8. See Isa 6:9ff. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:22: Corporate predestination? See this post by LXXLuthor at the FPR blog. Rom 10:10. See various [3] for a number of different translations of verse 10. Rom 11:6. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of grace, faith, and works. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a

Rom 9:16-20

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 9-11 Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:3. Paul is about to embark upon a complicated explanation of why the Jews are not automatically saved with the children of God by virtue of the promises to their fathers. He prefaces this by saying "I wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren." This he says, perhaps to show in a passionate and dramatic way, how deeply he loves and identifies with his Jewish brethren, so deeply that he'd be willing to be cursed for their sake. This is perhaps similar to Joseph Smith saying he would be willing to go to hell, just for the sake of Emma whom he loved so deeply. Rom 9:6: Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. Paul sets out to counter an argument made by the Jews that they are God's chosen people even if they don't believe in Christ. This is problematic, because the Jews have clearly been given so many special promises from God. However Paul says that being born in the covenant, doesn't nescessarilly make you an heir to the promises. He uses the example of Esau. As a blood descendant of Abraham, wasn't he entitled to the promises of the covenant? No, says Paul, and explains it later in verses 11-15 Rom 9:11-15. Here Paul explains why some people, like Esau, are not included as the true children of Israel. As we noted in the above verses. Paul is countering an argument that practicing Jews, who don't believe in Christ are automatically saved, by virtue of their blood. Paul believes that only those who believe on Christ are saved, not those who are born into a specific group, or who obey the works of the law. To make this argument, Paul is trying to chip away at the foundations of the Jewish theory of superiority by their blood birth. He uses the example of Jacob and Esau. Jacob was younger, but he was chosen by God as the birthright son. Why? Not because of any superiority, or greater works of Isaac. "not of works, but of him that calleth." verse 11. While it is true that Esau turned out to be more wicked, selling his birthright for a bowl of porridge, etc., Paul is saying that God chose Jacob only because that is what He wanted to do, and not because Isaac was more righteous. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." These 5 verses form the foundation of the Christian doctrine of pre-destination. This is because some Christians take these scriptures and apply them as a type for the salvation of every individual. However, Paul was only giving the example of why Esau was not included in the covenant people of Israel who later received the temple ordinances and priesthood. However, we know from many other Pauline scriptures, that those ordinances mean nothing, and that only a belief in Christ is a guarantee of Salvation. With that in mind, as LDS readers, we can rest assured that Jacob, Esau, and everyone else, must first believe in Christ before they can be saved. For Esau, we can assume this came in the Spirit World, when Christ visited the spirits in prison. There is no reason to assume that Esau was not given full salvation in the Celestial Kingdom if he accepted the gospel in it's fulness when given the chance. His rejection from the house of Israel means nothing, and ultimately, Isaac's inclusion also means nothing without belief in Christ. Pre-destination is only a true doctrine in that it determines the nature of our earthly state and calling, or birth into a particular family, or our opportunities to be given certain gifts and opportunities on earth. However, pre-destination does not apply to ultimate salvation. Only our choice to believe in Christ will determine our ultimate salvation according to Paul. Rom 9:11. "Being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil..." Many LDS believe that our standing in this life, even our circumstances are somewhat the result of our deeds in the pre-earth life. While this may be true to a lesser or greater extent, Paul seems to indicate in these scriptures that he believes otherwise. "Neither having done any good or evil...It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (verse 11, 16) In other words, God choses us for various callings and purposes, not based on our works, either in this life or past lives, but he choses us based on his own purposes. This Rom 9:16-20. Here Paul continues to elaborate and explain why God choses some over others. As noted in previous commentary. This does not apply to ultimate salvation. God is not pre-destining us for Salvation or Damnation. God is predestining us for various callings, missions, families, etc, pertaining to the mortal world. Not only does God pre-destine the family we are born into, he also is partially responsible for our very natures. (Whom he will, he hardeneth) verse 18. The obvious problem with this argument is that that we can say, "well if God made me this way, why can he turn around and condemn me for being this way?" (Why doth he yet find fault?) verse 19. Paul reasons that God should never be questioned because he IS God. "Who art thou that repliest against God?" Verse 20. Nevertheless, Paul also gives us a partial explanation later in the chapter. God doesn't want us to glory in our own works, but only in his grace, the grace available both to Jew and Gentile. The seeming randomness of material blessings and circumstances helps reinforce the truth that works are not responsible for the various divisions we see around us. Paul's argument that God is responsible for our "nature" is a thorny one, but one that merits some discussion. In the scientific world, human behavior is seen as either a response to "nature or nurture," our DNA, or our environment and upbringing. As LDS, we know that there is a third influence upon human behavior: the free-will of our eternal spirit. However, we also know that "nature and nurture" play an important role in our behavior. Even in the scriptures we are admonished to "bring up a child in the way he should go, and when he is older he will not depart from it." We know from science and from rational observation, that much of our individual behavior is the result of "nature and nurture," elements that are both beyond our individual control. Although the free will of our eternal spirit does have remarkable power, it's power for good or ill, is severely limited by the mortal circumstances we are thrust into in this life. Thus as Paul says, God is responsible for much of our nature and environment. We will be judged for the light that is given to us. Where little is given, little is required. Rom 9:22. Another troublesome scripture from the standpoint of pre-destination. Paul is saying that God wants to demonstrate his wrath and his power by damning those "fitted to destruction." This sounds dangerously like God has created some people merely to become the subjects of damnation. However, it is also important to note that God also "endures with longsuffering" these same souls. It is a hard scripture to adequately grasp, because it speaks of the wrath and the longsuffering of God in the same sentence. Will God be merciful to those he has "fitted to destruction" or will he damn them to hell? It is hard to answer this question given the obscurity of the phrasing. On just such obscure scriptures, Christiandom has argued for centuries over the concept of "pre-destination." From an LDS standpoint, it can be argued that God indeed has prepared some people to go to hell, which we call a temporary spirit prison. Their ultimate salvation however, is still in their own hands, as they can always embrace the gospel beyond the veil. God is responsible, or at least allows many innocent children to be born into families that raise them up unto wickedness, "fitted to destruction" if you will. However, it is the beauty of our doctrine that God has revealed to Joseph Smith that there is a way out of hell for all those who didn't have the opportunity to accept the gospel in mortal life. Rom 10:9-10. Verse 9 is a classic scripture used by Evangelicals to support the idea of salvation by confession alone, without works. LDS readers might counter that verse 10 qualifies Paul's statement by adding "believeth unto righteousness" suggesting that only a belief that leads to future righteousness can be considered sufficient for salvation. Interestingly many translations of verse 10 (see related links) leave out the idea that righteousness is included in the fruit of belief. Rom 10:13-15. Here we have a beautiful Climax of words: Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? Rom 11:8. See Isa 6:9ff. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:22: Corporate predestination? See this post by LXXLuthor at the FPR blog. Rom 10:10. See various [4] for a number of different translations of verse 10. Rom 11:6. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of grace, faith, and works. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a

Rom 9:21-25

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 9-11 Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:3. Paul is about to embark upon a complicated explanation of why the Jews are not automatically saved with the children of God by virtue of the promises to their fathers. He prefaces this by saying "I wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren." This he says, perhaps to show in a passionate and dramatic way, how deeply he loves and identifies with his Jewish brethren, so deeply that he'd be willing to be cursed for their sake. This is perhaps similar to Joseph Smith saying he would be willing to go to hell, just for the sake of Emma whom he loved so deeply. Rom 9:6: Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. Paul sets out to counter an argument made by the Jews that they are God's chosen people even if they don't believe in Christ. This is problematic, because the Jews have clearly been given so many special promises from God. However Paul says that being born in the covenant, doesn't nescessarilly make you an heir to the promises. He uses the example of Esau. As a blood descendant of Abraham, wasn't he entitled to the promises of the covenant? No, says Paul, and explains it later in verses 11-15 Rom 9:11-15. Here Paul explains why some people, like Esau, are not included as the true children of Israel. As we noted in the above verses. Paul is countering an argument that practicing Jews, who don't believe in Christ are automatically saved, by virtue of their blood. Paul believes that only those who believe on Christ are saved, not those who are born into a specific group, or who obey the works of the law. To make this argument, Paul is trying to chip away at the foundations of the Jewish theory of superiority by their blood birth. He uses the example of Jacob and Esau. Jacob was younger, but he was chosen by God as the birthright son. Why? Not because of any superiority, or greater works of Isaac. "not of works, but of him that calleth." verse 11. While it is true that Esau turned out to be more wicked, selling his birthright for a bowl of porridge, etc., Paul is saying that God chose Jacob only because that is what He wanted to do, and not because Isaac was more righteous. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." These 5 verses form the foundation of the Christian doctrine of pre-destination. This is because some Christians take these scriptures and apply them as a type for the salvation of every individual. However, Paul was only giving the example of why Esau was not included in the covenant people of Israel who later received the temple ordinances and priesthood. However, we know from many other Pauline scriptures, that those ordinances mean nothing, and that only a belief in Christ is a guarantee of Salvation. With that in mind, as LDS readers, we can rest assured that Jacob, Esau, and everyone else, must first believe in Christ before they can be saved. For Esau, we can assume this came in the Spirit World, when Christ visited the spirits in prison. There is no reason to assume that Esau was not given full salvation in the Celestial Kingdom if he accepted the gospel in it's fulness when given the chance. His rejection from the house of Israel means nothing, and ultimately, Isaac's inclusion also means nothing without belief in Christ. Pre-destination is only a true doctrine in that it determines the nature of our earthly state and calling, or birth into a particular family, or our opportunities to be given certain gifts and opportunities on earth. However, pre-destination does not apply to ultimate salvation. Only our choice to believe in Christ will determine our ultimate salvation according to Paul. Rom 9:11. "Being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil..." Many LDS believe that our standing in this life, even our circumstances are somewhat the result of our deeds in the pre-earth life. While this may be true to a lesser or greater extent, Paul seems to indicate in these scriptures that he believes otherwise. "Neither having done any good or evil...It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (verse 11, 16) In other words, God choses us for various callings and purposes, not based on our works, either in this life or past lives, but he choses us based on his own purposes. This Rom 9:16-20. Here Paul continues to elaborate and explain why God choses some over others. As noted in previous commentary. This does not apply to ultimate salvation. God is not pre-destining us for Salvation or Damnation. God is predestining us for various callings, missions, families, etc, pertaining to the mortal world. Not only does God pre-destine the family we are born into, he also is partially responsible for our very natures. (Whom he will, he hardeneth) verse 18. The obvious problem with this argument is that that we can say, "well if God made me this way, why can he turn around and condemn me for being this way?" (Why doth he yet find fault?) verse 19. Paul reasons that God should never be questioned because he IS God. "Who art thou that repliest against God?" Verse 20. Nevertheless, Paul also gives us a partial explanation later in the chapter. God doesn't want us to glory in our own works, but only in his grace, the grace available both to Jew and Gentile. The seeming randomness of material blessings and circumstances helps reinforce the truth that works are not responsible for the various divisions we see around us. Paul's argument that God is responsible for our "nature" is a thorny one, but one that merits some discussion. In the scientific world, human behavior is seen as either a response to "nature or nurture," our DNA, or our environment and upbringing. As LDS, we know that there is a third influence upon human behavior: the free-will of our eternal spirit. However, we also know that "nature and nurture" play an important role in our behavior. Even in the scriptures we are admonished to "bring up a child in the way he should go, and when he is older he will not depart from it." We know from science and from rational observation, that much of our individual behavior is the result of "nature and nurture," elements that are both beyond our individual control. Although the free will of our eternal spirit does have remarkable power, it's power for good or ill, is severely limited by the mortal circumstances we are thrust into in this life. Thus as Paul says, God is responsible for much of our nature and environment. We will be judged for the light that is given to us. Where little is given, little is required. Rom 9:22. Another troublesome scripture from the standpoint of pre-destination. Paul is saying that God wants to demonstrate his wrath and his power by damning those "fitted to destruction." This sounds dangerously like God has created some people merely to become the subjects of damnation. However, it is also important to note that God also "endures with longsuffering" these same souls. It is a hard scripture to adequately grasp, because it speaks of the wrath and the longsuffering of God in the same sentence. Will God be merciful to those he has "fitted to destruction" or will he damn them to hell? It is hard to answer this question given the obscurity of the phrasing. On just such obscure scriptures, Christiandom has argued for centuries over the concept of "pre-destination." From an LDS standpoint, it can be argued that God indeed has prepared some people to go to hell, which we call a temporary spirit prison. Their ultimate salvation however, is still in their own hands, as they can always embrace the gospel beyond the veil. God is responsible, or at least allows many innocent children to be born into families that raise them up unto wickedness, "fitted to destruction" if you will. However, it is the beauty of our doctrine that God has revealed to Joseph Smith that there is a way out of hell for all those who didn't have the opportunity to accept the gospel in mortal life. Rom 10:9-10. Verse 9 is a classic scripture used by Evangelicals to support the idea of salvation by confession alone, without works. LDS readers might counter that verse 10 qualifies Paul's statement by adding "believeth unto righteousness" suggesting that only a belief that leads to future righteousness can be considered sufficient for salvation. Interestingly many translations of verse 10 (see related links) leave out the idea that righteousness is included in the fruit of belief. Rom 10:13-15. Here we have a beautiful Climax of words: Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? Rom 11:8. See Isa 6:9ff. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:22: Corporate predestination? See this post by LXXLuthor at the FPR blog. Rom 10:10. See various [5] for a number of different translations of verse 10. Rom 11:6. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of grace, faith, and works. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a

Rom 9:26-30

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 9-11 Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:3. Paul is about to embark upon a complicated explanation of why the Jews are not automatically saved with the children of God by virtue of the promises to their fathers. He prefaces this by saying "I wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren." This he says, perhaps to show in a passionate and dramatic way, how deeply he loves and identifies with his Jewish brethren, so deeply that he'd be willing to be cursed for their sake. This is perhaps similar to Joseph Smith saying he would be willing to go to hell, just for the sake of Emma whom he loved so deeply. Rom 9:6: Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. Paul sets out to counter an argument made by the Jews that they are God's chosen people even if they don't believe in Christ. This is problematic, because the Jews have clearly been given so many special promises from God. However Paul says that being born in the covenant, doesn't nescessarilly make you an heir to the promises. He uses the example of Esau. As a blood descendant of Abraham, wasn't he entitled to the promises of the covenant? No, says Paul, and explains it later in verses 11-15 Rom 9:11-15. Here Paul explains why some people, like Esau, are not included as the true children of Israel. As we noted in the above verses. Paul is countering an argument that practicing Jews, who don't believe in Christ are automatically saved, by virtue of their blood. Paul believes that only those who believe on Christ are saved, not those who are born into a specific group, or who obey the works of the law. To make this argument, Paul is trying to chip away at the foundations of the Jewish theory of superiority by their blood birth. He uses the example of Jacob and Esau. Jacob was younger, but he was chosen by God as the birthright son. Why? Not because of any superiority, or greater works of Isaac. "not of works, but of him that calleth." verse 11. While it is true that Esau turned out to be more wicked, selling his birthright for a bowl of porridge, etc., Paul is saying that God chose Jacob only because that is what He wanted to do, and not because Isaac was more righteous. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." These 5 verses form the foundation of the Christian doctrine of pre-destination. This is because some Christians take these scriptures and apply them as a type for the salvation of every individual. However, Paul was only giving the example of why Esau was not included in the covenant people of Israel who later received the temple ordinances and priesthood. However, we know from many other Pauline scriptures, that those ordinances mean nothing, and that only a belief in Christ is a guarantee of Salvation. With that in mind, as LDS readers, we can rest assured that Jacob, Esau, and everyone else, must first believe in Christ before they can be saved. For Esau, we can assume this came in the Spirit World, when Christ visited the spirits in prison. There is no reason to assume that Esau was not given full salvation in the Celestial Kingdom if he accepted the gospel in it's fulness when given the chance. His rejection from the house of Israel means nothing, and ultimately, Isaac's inclusion also means nothing without belief in Christ. Pre-destination is only a true doctrine in that it determines the nature of our earthly state and calling, or birth into a particular family, or our opportunities to be given certain gifts and opportunities on earth. However, pre-destination does not apply to ultimate salvation. Only our choice to believe in Christ will determine our ultimate salvation according to Paul. Rom 9:11. "Being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil..." Many LDS believe that our standing in this life, even our circumstances are somewhat the result of our deeds in the pre-earth life. While this may be true to a lesser or greater extent, Paul seems to indicate in these scriptures that he believes otherwise. "Neither having done any good or evil...It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (verse 11, 16) In other words, God choses us for various callings and purposes, not based on our works, either in this life or past lives, but he choses us based on his own purposes. This Rom 9:16-20. Here Paul continues to elaborate and explain why God choses some over others. As noted in previous commentary. This does not apply to ultimate salvation. God is not pre-destining us for Salvation or Damnation. God is predestining us for various callings, missions, families, etc, pertaining to the mortal world. Not only does God pre-destine the family we are born into, he also is partially responsible for our very natures. (Whom he will, he hardeneth) verse 18. The obvious problem with this argument is that that we can say, "well if God made me this way, why can he turn around and condemn me for being this way?" (Why doth he yet find fault?) verse 19. Paul reasons that God should never be questioned because he IS God. "Who art thou that repliest against God?" Verse 20. Nevertheless, Paul also gives us a partial explanation later in the chapter. God doesn't want us to glory in our own works, but only in his grace, the grace available both to Jew and Gentile. The seeming randomness of material blessings and circumstances helps reinforce the truth that works are not responsible for the various divisions we see around us. Paul's argument that God is responsible for our "nature" is a thorny one, but one that merits some discussion. In the scientific world, human behavior is seen as either a response to "nature or nurture," our DNA, or our environment and upbringing. As LDS, we know that there is a third influence upon human behavior: the free-will of our eternal spirit. However, we also know that "nature and nurture" play an important role in our behavior. Even in the scriptures we are admonished to "bring up a child in the way he should go, and when he is older he will not depart from it." We know from science and from rational observation, that much of our individual behavior is the result of "nature and nurture," elements that are both beyond our individual control. Although the free will of our eternal spirit does have remarkable power, it's power for good or ill, is severely limited by the mortal circumstances we are thrust into in this life. Thus as Paul says, God is responsible for much of our nature and environment. We will be judged for the light that is given to us. Where little is given, little is required. Rom 9:22. Another troublesome scripture from the standpoint of pre-destination. Paul is saying that God wants to demonstrate his wrath and his power by damning those "fitted to destruction." This sounds dangerously like God has created some people merely to become the subjects of damnation. However, it is also important to note that God also "endures with longsuffering" these same souls. It is a hard scripture to adequately grasp, because it speaks of the wrath and the longsuffering of God in the same sentence. Will God be merciful to those he has "fitted to destruction" or will he damn them to hell? It is hard to answer this question given the obscurity of the phrasing. On just such obscure scriptures, Christiandom has argued for centuries over the concept of "pre-destination." From an LDS standpoint, it can be argued that God indeed has prepared some people to go to hell, which we call a temporary spirit prison. Their ultimate salvation however, is still in their own hands, as they can always embrace the gospel beyond the veil. God is responsible, or at least allows many innocent children to be born into families that raise them up unto wickedness, "fitted to destruction" if you will. However, it is the beauty of our doctrine that God has revealed to Joseph Smith that there is a way out of hell for all those who didn't have the opportunity to accept the gospel in mortal life. Rom 10:9-10. Verse 9 is a classic scripture used by Evangelicals to support the idea of salvation by confession alone, without works. LDS readers might counter that verse 10 qualifies Paul's statement by adding "believeth unto righteousness" suggesting that only a belief that leads to future righteousness can be considered sufficient for salvation. Interestingly many translations of verse 10 (see related links) leave out the idea that righteousness is included in the fruit of belief. Rom 10:13-15. Here we have a beautiful Climax of words: Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? Rom 11:8. See Isa 6:9ff. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:22: Corporate predestination? See this post by LXXLuthor at the FPR blog. Rom 10:10. See various [6] for a number of different translations of verse 10. Rom 11:6. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of grace, faith, and works. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a

Rom 9:31-33

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 9-11 Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:3. Paul is about to embark upon a complicated explanation of why the Jews are not automatically saved with the children of God by virtue of the promises to their fathers. He prefaces this by saying "I wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren." This he says, perhaps to show in a passionate and dramatic way, how deeply he loves and identifies with his Jewish brethren, so deeply that he'd be willing to be cursed for their sake. This is perhaps similar to Joseph Smith saying he would be willing to go to hell, just for the sake of Emma whom he loved so deeply. Rom 9:6: Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. Paul sets out to counter an argument made by the Jews that they are God's chosen people even if they don't believe in Christ. This is problematic, because the Jews have clearly been given so many special promises from God. However Paul says that being born in the covenant, doesn't nescessarilly make you an heir to the promises. He uses the example of Esau. As a blood descendant of Abraham, wasn't he entitled to the promises of the covenant? No, says Paul, and explains it later in verses 11-15 Rom 9:11-15. Here Paul explains why some people, like Esau, are not included as the true children of Israel. As we noted in the above verses. Paul is countering an argument that practicing Jews, who don't believe in Christ are automatically saved, by virtue of their blood. Paul believes that only those who believe on Christ are saved, not those who are born into a specific group, or who obey the works of the law. To make this argument, Paul is trying to chip away at the foundations of the Jewish theory of superiority by their blood birth. He uses the example of Jacob and Esau. Jacob was younger, but he was chosen by God as the birthright son. Why? Not because of any superiority, or greater works of Isaac. "not of works, but of him that calleth." verse 11. While it is true that Esau turned out to be more wicked, selling his birthright for a bowl of porridge, etc., Paul is saying that God chose Jacob only because that is what He wanted to do, and not because Isaac was more righteous. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." These 5 verses form the foundation of the Christian doctrine of pre-destination. This is because some Christians take these scriptures and apply them as a type for the salvation of every individual. However, Paul was only giving the example of why Esau was not included in the covenant people of Israel who later received the temple ordinances and priesthood. However, we know from many other Pauline scriptures, that those ordinances mean nothing, and that only a belief in Christ is a guarantee of Salvation. With that in mind, as LDS readers, we can rest assured that Jacob, Esau, and everyone else, must first believe in Christ before they can be saved. For Esau, we can assume this came in the Spirit World, when Christ visited the spirits in prison. There is no reason to assume that Esau was not given full salvation in the Celestial Kingdom if he accepted the gospel in it's fulness when given the chance. His rejection from the house of Israel means nothing, and ultimately, Isaac's inclusion also means nothing without belief in Christ. Pre-destination is only a true doctrine in that it determines the nature of our earthly state and calling, or birth into a particular family, or our opportunities to be given certain gifts and opportunities on earth. However, pre-destination does not apply to ultimate salvation. Only our choice to believe in Christ will determine our ultimate salvation according to Paul. Rom 9:11. "Being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil..." Many LDS believe that our standing in this life, even our circumstances are somewhat the result of our deeds in the pre-earth life. While this may be true to a lesser or greater extent, Paul seems to indicate in these scriptures that he believes otherwise. "Neither having done any good or evil...It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (verse 11, 16) In other words, God choses us for various callings and purposes, not based on our works, either in this life or past lives, but he choses us based on his own purposes. This Rom 9:16-20. Here Paul continues to elaborate and explain why God choses some over others. As noted in previous commentary. This does not apply to ultimate salvation. God is not pre-destining us for Salvation or Damnation. God is predestining us for various callings, missions, families, etc, pertaining to the mortal world. Not only does God pre-destine the family we are born into, he also is partially responsible for our very natures. (Whom he will, he hardeneth) verse 18. The obvious problem with this argument is that that we can say, "well if God made me this way, why can he turn around and condemn me for being this way?" (Why doth he yet find fault?) verse 19. Paul reasons that God should never be questioned because he IS God. "Who art thou that repliest against God?" Verse 20. Nevertheless, Paul also gives us a partial explanation later in the chapter. God doesn't want us to glory in our own works, but only in his grace, the grace available both to Jew and Gentile. The seeming randomness of material blessings and circumstances helps reinforce the truth that works are not responsible for the various divisions we see around us. Paul's argument that God is responsible for our "nature" is a thorny one, but one that merits some discussion. In the scientific world, human behavior is seen as either a response to "nature or nurture," our DNA, or our environment and upbringing. As LDS, we know that there is a third influence upon human behavior: the free-will of our eternal spirit. However, we also know that "nature and nurture" play an important role in our behavior. Even in the scriptures we are admonished to "bring up a child in the way he should go, and when he is older he will not depart from it." We know from science and from rational observation, that much of our individual behavior is the result of "nature and nurture," elements that are both beyond our individual control. Although the free will of our eternal spirit does have remarkable power, it's power for good or ill, is severely limited by the mortal circumstances we are thrust into in this life. Thus as Paul says, God is responsible for much of our nature and environment. We will be judged for the light that is given to us. Where little is given, little is required. Rom 9:22. Another troublesome scripture from the standpoint of pre-destination. Paul is saying that God wants to demonstrate his wrath and his power by damning those "fitted to destruction." This sounds dangerously like God has created some people merely to become the subjects of damnation. However, it is also important to note that God also "endures with longsuffering" these same souls. It is a hard scripture to adequately grasp, because it speaks of the wrath and the longsuffering of God in the same sentence. Will God be merciful to those he has "fitted to destruction" or will he damn them to hell? It is hard to answer this question given the obscurity of the phrasing. On just such obscure scriptures, Christiandom has argued for centuries over the concept of "pre-destination." From an LDS standpoint, it can be argued that God indeed has prepared some people to go to hell, which we call a temporary spirit prison. Their ultimate salvation however, is still in their own hands, as they can always embrace the gospel beyond the veil. God is responsible, or at least allows many innocent children to be born into families that raise them up unto wickedness, "fitted to destruction" if you will. However, it is the beauty of our doctrine that God has revealed to Joseph Smith that there is a way out of hell for all those who didn't have the opportunity to accept the gospel in mortal life. Rom 10:9-10. Verse 9 is a classic scripture used by Evangelicals to support the idea of salvation by confession alone, without works. LDS readers might counter that verse 10 qualifies Paul's statement by adding "believeth unto righteousness" suggesting that only a belief that leads to future righteousness can be considered sufficient for salvation. Interestingly many translations of verse 10 (see related links) leave out the idea that righteousness is included in the fruit of belief. Rom 10:13-15. Here we have a beautiful Climax of words: Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? Rom 11:8. See Isa 6:9ff. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:22: Corporate predestination? See this post by LXXLuthor at the FPR blog. Rom 10:10. See various [7] for a number of different translations of verse 10. Rom 11:6. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of grace, faith, and works. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a

Rom 10:1-5

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 9-11 Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:3. Paul is about to embark upon a complicated explanation of why the Jews are not automatically saved with the children of God by virtue of the promises to their fathers. He prefaces this by saying "I wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren." This he says, perhaps to show in a passionate and dramatic way, how deeply he loves and identifies with his Jewish brethren, so deeply that he'd be willing to be cursed for their sake. This is perhaps similar to Joseph Smith saying he would be willing to go to hell, just for the sake of Emma whom he loved so deeply. Rom 9:6: Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. Paul sets out to counter an argument made by the Jews that they are God's chosen people even if they don't believe in Christ. This is problematic, because the Jews have clearly been given so many special promises from God. However Paul says that being born in the covenant, doesn't nescessarilly make you an heir to the promises. He uses the example of Esau. As a blood descendant of Abraham, wasn't he entitled to the promises of the covenant? No, says Paul, and explains it later in verses 11-15 Rom 9:11-15. Here Paul explains why some people, like Esau, are not included as the true children of Israel. As we noted in the above verses. Paul is countering an argument that practicing Jews, who don't believe in Christ are automatically saved, by virtue of their blood. Paul believes that only those who believe on Christ are saved, not those who are born into a specific group, or who obey the works of the law. To make this argument, Paul is trying to chip away at the foundations of the Jewish theory of superiority by their blood birth. He uses the example of Jacob and Esau. Jacob was younger, but he was chosen by God as the birthright son. Why? Not because of any superiority, or greater works of Isaac. "not of works, but of him that calleth." verse 11. While it is true that Esau turned out to be more wicked, selling his birthright for a bowl of porridge, etc., Paul is saying that God chose Jacob only because that is what He wanted to do, and not because Isaac was more righteous. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." These 5 verses form the foundation of the Christian doctrine of pre-destination. This is because some Christians take these scriptures and apply them as a type for the salvation of every individual. However, Paul was only giving the example of why Esau was not included in the covenant people of Israel who later received the temple ordinances and priesthood. However, we know from many other Pauline scriptures, that those ordinances mean nothing, and that only a belief in Christ is a guarantee of Salvation. With that in mind, as LDS readers, we can rest assured that Jacob, Esau, and everyone else, must first believe in Christ before they can be saved. For Esau, we can assume this came in the Spirit World, when Christ visited the spirits in prison. There is no reason to assume that Esau was not given full salvation in the Celestial Kingdom if he accepted the gospel in it's fulness when given the chance. His rejection from the house of Israel means nothing, and ultimately, Isaac's inclusion also means nothing without belief in Christ. Pre-destination is only a true doctrine in that it determines the nature of our earthly state and calling, or birth into a particular family, or our opportunities to be given certain gifts and opportunities on earth. However, pre-destination does not apply to ultimate salvation. Only our choice to believe in Christ will determine our ultimate salvation according to Paul. Rom 9:11. "Being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil..." Many LDS believe that our standing in this life, even our circumstances are somewhat the result of our deeds in the pre-earth life. While this may be true to a lesser or greater extent, Paul seems to indicate in these scriptures that he believes otherwise. "Neither having done any good or evil...It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (verse 11, 16) In other words, God choses us for various callings and purposes, not based on our works, either in this life or past lives, but he choses us based on his own purposes. This Rom 9:16-20. Here Paul continues to elaborate and explain why God choses some over others. As noted in previous commentary. This does not apply to ultimate salvation. God is not pre-destining us for Salvation or Damnation. God is predestining us for various callings, missions, families, etc, pertaining to the mortal world. Not only does God pre-destine the family we are born into, he also is partially responsible for our very natures. (Whom he will, he hardeneth) verse 18. The obvious problem with this argument is that that we can say, "well if God made me this way, why can he turn around and condemn me for being this way?" (Why doth he yet find fault?) verse 19. Paul reasons that God should never be questioned because he IS God. "Who art thou that repliest against God?" Verse 20. Nevertheless, Paul also gives us a partial explanation later in the chapter. God doesn't want us to glory in our own works, but only in his grace, the grace available both to Jew and Gentile. The seeming randomness of material blessings and circumstances helps reinforce the truth that works are not responsible for the various divisions we see around us. Paul's argument that God is responsible for our "nature" is a thorny one, but one that merits some discussion. In the scientific world, human behavior is seen as either a response to "nature or nurture," our DNA, or our environment and upbringing. As LDS, we know that there is a third influence upon human behavior: the free-will of our eternal spirit. However, we also know that "nature and nurture" play an important role in our behavior. Even in the scriptures we are admonished to "bring up a child in the way he should go, and when he is older he will not depart from it." We know from science and from rational observation, that much of our individual behavior is the result of "nature and nurture," elements that are both beyond our individual control. Although the free will of our eternal spirit does have remarkable power, it's power for good or ill, is severely limited by the mortal circumstances we are thrust into in this life. Thus as Paul says, God is responsible for much of our nature and environment. We will be judged for the light that is given to us. Where little is given, little is required. Rom 9:22. Another troublesome scripture from the standpoint of pre-destination. Paul is saying that God wants to demonstrate his wrath and his power by damning those "fitted to destruction." This sounds dangerously like God has created some people merely to become the subjects of damnation. However, it is also important to note that God also "endures with longsuffering" these same souls. It is a hard scripture to adequately grasp, because it speaks of the wrath and the longsuffering of God in the same sentence. Will God be merciful to those he has "fitted to destruction" or will he damn them to hell? It is hard to answer this question given the obscurity of the phrasing. On just such obscure scriptures, Christiandom has argued for centuries over the concept of "pre-destination." From an LDS standpoint, it can be argued that God indeed has prepared some people to go to hell, which we call a temporary spirit prison. Their ultimate salvation however, is still in their own hands, as they can always embrace the gospel beyond the veil. God is responsible, or at least allows many innocent children to be born into families that raise them up unto wickedness, "fitted to destruction" if you will. However, it is the beauty of our doctrine that God has revealed to Joseph Smith that there is a way out of hell for all those who didn't have the opportunity to accept the gospel in mortal life. Rom 10:9-10. Verse 9 is a classic scripture used by Evangelicals to support the idea of salvation by confession alone, without works. LDS readers might counter that verse 10 qualifies Paul's statement by adding "believeth unto righteousness" suggesting that only a belief that leads to future righteousness can be considered sufficient for salvation. Interestingly many translations of verse 10 (see related links) leave out the idea that righteousness is included in the fruit of belief. Rom 10:13-15. Here we have a beautiful Climax of words: Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? Rom 11:8. See Isa 6:9ff. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:22: Corporate predestination? See this post by LXXLuthor at the FPR blog. Rom 10:10. See various [8] for a number of different translations of verse 10. Rom 11:6. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of grace, faith, and works. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a

Rom 10:6-10

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 9-11 Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:3. Paul is about to embark upon a complicated explanation of why the Jews are not automatically saved with the children of God by virtue of the promises to their fathers. He prefaces this by saying "I wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren." This he says, perhaps to show in a passionate and dramatic way, how deeply he loves and identifies with his Jewish brethren, so deeply that he'd be willing to be cursed for their sake. This is perhaps similar to Joseph Smith saying he would be willing to go to hell, just for the sake of Emma whom he loved so deeply. Rom 9:6: Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. Paul sets out to counter an argument made by the Jews that they are God's chosen people even if they don't believe in Christ. This is problematic, because the Jews have clearly been given so many special promises from God. However Paul says that being born in the covenant, doesn't nescessarilly make you an heir to the promises. He uses the example of Esau. As a blood descendant of Abraham, wasn't he entitled to the promises of the covenant? No, says Paul, and explains it later in verses 11-15 Rom 9:11-15. Here Paul explains why some people, like Esau, are not included as the true children of Israel. As we noted in the above verses. Paul is countering an argument that practicing Jews, who don't believe in Christ are automatically saved, by virtue of their blood. Paul believes that only those who believe on Christ are saved, not those who are born into a specific group, or who obey the works of the law. To make this argument, Paul is trying to chip away at the foundations of the Jewish theory of superiority by their blood birth. He uses the example of Jacob and Esau. Jacob was younger, but he was chosen by God as the birthright son. Why? Not because of any superiority, or greater works of Isaac. "not of works, but of him that calleth." verse 11. While it is true that Esau turned out to be more wicked, selling his birthright for a bowl of porridge, etc., Paul is saying that God chose Jacob only because that is what He wanted to do, and not because Isaac was more righteous. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." These 5 verses form the foundation of the Christian doctrine of pre-destination. This is because some Christians take these scriptures and apply them as a type for the salvation of every individual. However, Paul was only giving the example of why Esau was not included in the covenant people of Israel who later received the temple ordinances and priesthood. However, we know from many other Pauline scriptures, that those ordinances mean nothing, and that only a belief in Christ is a guarantee of Salvation. With that in mind, as LDS readers, we can rest assured that Jacob, Esau, and everyone else, must first believe in Christ before they can be saved. For Esau, we can assume this came in the Spirit World, when Christ visited the spirits in prison. There is no reason to assume that Esau was not given full salvation in the Celestial Kingdom if he accepted the gospel in it's fulness when given the chance. His rejection from the house of Israel means nothing, and ultimately, Isaac's inclusion also means nothing without belief in Christ. Pre-destination is only a true doctrine in that it determines the nature of our earthly state and calling, or birth into a particular family, or our opportunities to be given certain gifts and opportunities on earth. However, pre-destination does not apply to ultimate salvation. Only our choice to believe in Christ will determine our ultimate salvation according to Paul. Rom 9:11. "Being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil..." Many LDS believe that our standing in this life, even our circumstances are somewhat the result of our deeds in the pre-earth life. While this may be true to a lesser or greater extent, Paul seems to indicate in these scriptures that he believes otherwise. "Neither having done any good or evil...It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (verse 11, 16) In other words, God choses us for various callings and purposes, not based on our works, either in this life or past lives, but he choses us based on his own purposes. This Rom 9:16-20. Here Paul continues to elaborate and explain why God choses some over others. As noted in previous commentary. This does not apply to ultimate salvation. God is not pre-destining us for Salvation or Damnation. God is predestining us for various callings, missions, families, etc, pertaining to the mortal world. Not only does God pre-destine the family we are born into, he also is partially responsible for our very natures. (Whom he will, he hardeneth) verse 18. The obvious problem with this argument is that that we can say, "well if God made me this way, why can he turn around and condemn me for being this way?" (Why doth he yet find fault?) verse 19. Paul reasons that God should never be questioned because he IS God. "Who art thou that repliest against God?" Verse 20. Nevertheless, Paul also gives us a partial explanation later in the chapter. God doesn't want us to glory in our own works, but only in his grace, the grace available both to Jew and Gentile. The seeming randomness of material blessings and circumstances helps reinforce the truth that works are not responsible for the various divisions we see around us. Paul's argument that God is responsible for our "nature" is a thorny one, but one that merits some discussion. In the scientific world, human behavior is seen as either a response to "nature or nurture," our DNA, or our environment and upbringing. As LDS, we know that there is a third influence upon human behavior: the free-will of our eternal spirit. However, we also know that "nature and nurture" play an important role in our behavior. Even in the scriptures we are admonished to "bring up a child in the way he should go, and when he is older he will not depart from it." We know from science and from rational observation, that much of our individual behavior is the result of "nature and nurture," elements that are both beyond our individual control. Although the free will of our eternal spirit does have remarkable power, it's power for good or ill, is severely limited by the mortal circumstances we are thrust into in this life. Thus as Paul says, God is responsible for much of our nature and environment. We will be judged for the light that is given to us. Where little is given, little is required. Rom 9:22. Another troublesome scripture from the standpoint of pre-destination. Paul is saying that God wants to demonstrate his wrath and his power by damning those "fitted to destruction." This sounds dangerously like God has created some people merely to become the subjects of damnation. However, it is also important to note that God also "endures with longsuffering" these same souls. It is a hard scripture to adequately grasp, because it speaks of the wrath and the longsuffering of God in the same sentence. Will God be merciful to those he has "fitted to destruction" or will he damn them to hell? It is hard to answer this question given the obscurity of the phrasing. On just such obscure scriptures, Christiandom has argued for centuries over the concept of "pre-destination." From an LDS standpoint, it can be argued that God indeed has prepared some people to go to hell, which we call a temporary spirit prison. Their ultimate salvation however, is still in their own hands, as they can always embrace the gospel beyond the veil. God is responsible, or at least allows many innocent children to be born into families that raise them up unto wickedness, "fitted to destruction" if you will. However, it is the beauty of our doctrine that God has revealed to Joseph Smith that there is a way out of hell for all those who didn't have the opportunity to accept the gospel in mortal life. Rom 10:9-10. Verse 9 is a classic scripture used by Evangelicals to support the idea of salvation by confession alone, without works. LDS readers might counter that verse 10 qualifies Paul's statement by adding "believeth unto righteousness" suggesting that only a belief that leads to future righteousness can be considered sufficient for salvation. Interestingly many translations of verse 10 (see related links) leave out the idea that righteousness is included in the fruit of belief. Rom 10:13-15. Here we have a beautiful Climax of words: Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? Rom 11:8. See Isa 6:9ff. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:22: Corporate predestination? See this post by LXXLuthor at the FPR blog. Rom 10:10. See various [9] for a number of different translations of verse 10. Rom 11:6. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of grace, faith, and works. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a

Rom 10:11-15

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 9-11 Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:3. Paul is about to embark upon a complicated explanation of why the Jews are not automatically saved with the children of God by virtue of the promises to their fathers. He prefaces this by saying "I wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren." This he says, perhaps to show in a passionate and dramatic way, how deeply he loves and identifies with his Jewish brethren, so deeply that he'd be willing to be cursed for their sake. This is perhaps similar to Joseph Smith saying he would be willing to go to hell, just for the sake of Emma whom he loved so deeply. Rom 9:6: Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. Paul sets out to counter an argument made by the Jews that they are God's chosen people even if they don't believe in Christ. This is problematic, because the Jews have clearly been given so many special promises from God. However Paul says that being born in the covenant, doesn't nescessarilly make you an heir to the promises. He uses the example of Esau. As a blood descendant of Abraham, wasn't he entitled to the promises of the covenant? No, says Paul, and explains it later in verses 11-15 Rom 9:11-15. Here Paul explains why some people, like Esau, are not included as the true children of Israel. As we noted in the above verses. Paul is countering an argument that practicing Jews, who don't believe in Christ are automatically saved, by virtue of their blood. Paul believes that only those who believe on Christ are saved, not those who are born into a specific group, or who obey the works of the law. To make this argument, Paul is trying to chip away at the foundations of the Jewish theory of superiority by their blood birth. He uses the example of Jacob and Esau. Jacob was younger, but he was chosen by God as the birthright son. Why? Not because of any superiority, or greater works of Isaac. "not of works, but of him that calleth." verse 11. While it is true that Esau turned out to be more wicked, selling his birthright for a bowl of porridge, etc., Paul is saying that God chose Jacob only because that is what He wanted to do, and not because Isaac was more righteous. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." These 5 verses form the foundation of the Christian doctrine of pre-destination. This is because some Christians take these scriptures and apply them as a type for the salvation of every individual. However, Paul was only giving the example of why Esau was not included in the covenant people of Israel who later received the temple ordinances and priesthood. However, we know from many other Pauline scriptures, that those ordinances mean nothing, and that only a belief in Christ is a guarantee of Salvation. With that in mind, as LDS readers, we can rest assured that Jacob, Esau, and everyone else, must first believe in Christ before they can be saved. For Esau, we can assume this came in the Spirit World, when Christ visited the spirits in prison. There is no reason to assume that Esau was not given full salvation in the Celestial Kingdom if he accepted the gospel in it's fulness when given the chance. His rejection from the house of Israel means nothing, and ultimately, Isaac's inclusion also means nothing without belief in Christ. Pre-destination is only a true doctrine in that it determines the nature of our earthly state and calling, or birth into a particular family, or our opportunities to be given certain gifts and opportunities on earth. However, pre-destination does not apply to ultimate salvation. Only our choice to believe in Christ will determine our ultimate salvation according to Paul. Rom 9:11. "Being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil..." Many LDS believe that our standing in this life, even our circumstances are somewhat the result of our deeds in the pre-earth life. While this may be true to a lesser or greater extent, Paul seems to indicate in these scriptures that he believes otherwise. "Neither having done any good or evil...It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (verse 11, 16) In other words, God choses us for various callings and purposes, not based on our works, either in this life or past lives, but he choses us based on his own purposes. This Rom 9:16-20. Here Paul continues to elaborate and explain why God choses some over others. As noted in previous commentary. This does not apply to ultimate salvation. God is not pre-destining us for Salvation or Damnation. God is predestining us for various callings, missions, families, etc, pertaining to the mortal world. Not only does God pre-destine the family we are born into, he also is partially responsible for our very natures. (Whom he will, he hardeneth) verse 18. The obvious problem with this argument is that that we can say, "well if God made me this way, why can he turn around and condemn me for being this way?" (Why doth he yet find fault?) verse 19. Paul reasons that God should never be questioned because he IS God. "Who art thou that repliest against God?" Verse 20. Nevertheless, Paul also gives us a partial explanation later in the chapter. God doesn't want us to glory in our own works, but only in his grace, the grace available both to Jew and Gentile. The seeming randomness of material blessings and circumstances helps reinforce the truth that works are not responsible for the various divisions we see around us. Paul's argument that God is responsible for our "nature" is a thorny one, but one that merits some discussion. In the scientific world, human behavior is seen as either a response to "nature or nurture," our DNA, or our environment and upbringing. As LDS, we know that there is a third influence upon human behavior: the free-will of our eternal spirit. However, we also know that "nature and nurture" play an important role in our behavior. Even in the scriptures we are admonished to "bring up a child in the way he should go, and when he is older he will not depart from it." We know from science and from rational observation, that much of our individual behavior is the result of "nature and nurture," elements that are both beyond our individual control. Although the free will of our eternal spirit does have remarkable power, it's power for good or ill, is severely limited by the mortal circumstances we are thrust into in this life. Thus as Paul says, God is responsible for much of our nature and environment. We will be judged for the light that is given to us. Where little is given, little is required. Rom 9:22. Another troublesome scripture from the standpoint of pre-destination. Paul is saying that God wants to demonstrate his wrath and his power by damning those "fitted to destruction." This sounds dangerously like God has created some people merely to become the subjects of damnation. However, it is also important to note that God also "endures with longsuffering" these same souls. It is a hard scripture to adequately grasp, because it speaks of the wrath and the longsuffering of God in the same sentence. Will God be merciful to those he has "fitted to destruction" or will he damn them to hell? It is hard to answer this question given the obscurity of the phrasing. On just such obscure scriptures, Christiandom has argued for centuries over the concept of "pre-destination." From an LDS standpoint, it can be argued that God indeed has prepared some people to go to hell, which we call a temporary spirit prison. Their ultimate salvation however, is still in their own hands, as they can always embrace the gospel beyond the veil. God is responsible, or at least allows many innocent children to be born into families that raise them up unto wickedness, "fitted to destruction" if you will. However, it is the beauty of our doctrine that God has revealed to Joseph Smith that there is a way out of hell for all those who didn't have the opportunity to accept the gospel in mortal life. Rom 10:9-10. Verse 9 is a classic scripture used by Evangelicals to support the idea of salvation by confession alone, without works. LDS readers might counter that verse 10 qualifies Paul's statement by adding "believeth unto righteousness" suggesting that only a belief that leads to future righteousness can be considered sufficient for salvation. Interestingly many translations of verse 10 (see related links) leave out the idea that righteousness is included in the fruit of belief. Rom 10:13-15. Here we have a beautiful Climax of words: Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? Rom 11:8. See Isa 6:9ff. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:22: Corporate predestination? See this post by LXXLuthor at the FPR blog. Rom 10:10. See various [10] for a number of different translations of verse 10. Rom 11:6. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of grace, faith, and works. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a

Rom 10:16-21

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 9-11 Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:3. Paul is about to embark upon a complicated explanation of why the Jews are not automatically saved with the children of God by virtue of the promises to their fathers. He prefaces this by saying "I wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren." This he says, perhaps to show in a passionate and dramatic way, how deeply he loves and identifies with his Jewish brethren, so deeply that he'd be willing to be cursed for their sake. This is perhaps similar to Joseph Smith saying he would be willing to go to hell, just for the sake of Emma whom he loved so deeply. Rom 9:6: Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. Paul sets out to counter an argument made by the Jews that they are God's chosen people even if they don't believe in Christ. This is problematic, because the Jews have clearly been given so many special promises from God. However Paul says that being born in the covenant, doesn't nescessarilly make you an heir to the promises. He uses the example of Esau. As a blood descendant of Abraham, wasn't he entitled to the promises of the covenant? No, says Paul, and explains it later in verses 11-15 Rom 9:11-15. Here Paul explains why some people, like Esau, are not included as the true children of Israel. As we noted in the above verses. Paul is countering an argument that practicing Jews, who don't believe in Christ are automatically saved, by virtue of their blood. Paul believes that only those who believe on Christ are saved, not those who are born into a specific group, or who obey the works of the law. To make this argument, Paul is trying to chip away at the foundations of the Jewish theory of superiority by their blood birth. He uses the example of Jacob and Esau. Jacob was younger, but he was chosen by God as the birthright son. Why? Not because of any superiority, or greater works of Isaac. "not of works, but of him that calleth." verse 11. While it is true that Esau turned out to be more wicked, selling his birthright for a bowl of porridge, etc., Paul is saying that God chose Jacob only because that is what He wanted to do, and not because Isaac was more righteous. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." These 5 verses form the foundation of the Christian doctrine of pre-destination. This is because some Christians take these scriptures and apply them as a type for the salvation of every individual. However, Paul was only giving the example of why Esau was not included in the covenant people of Israel who later received the temple ordinances and priesthood. However, we know from many other Pauline scriptures, that those ordinances mean nothing, and that only a belief in Christ is a guarantee of Salvation. With that in mind, as LDS readers, we can rest assured that Jacob, Esau, and everyone else, must first believe in Christ before they can be saved. For Esau, we can assume this came in the Spirit World, when Christ visited the spirits in prison. There is no reason to assume that Esau was not given full salvation in the Celestial Kingdom if he accepted the gospel in it's fulness when given the chance. His rejection from the house of Israel means nothing, and ultimately, Isaac's inclusion also means nothing without belief in Christ. Pre-destination is only a true doctrine in that it determines the nature of our earthly state and calling, or birth into a particular family, or our opportunities to be given certain gifts and opportunities on earth. However, pre-destination does not apply to ultimate salvation. Only our choice to believe in Christ will determine our ultimate salvation according to Paul. Rom 9:11. "Being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil..." Many LDS believe that our standing in this life, even our circumstances are somewhat the result of our deeds in the pre-earth life. While this may be true to a lesser or greater extent, Paul seems to indicate in these scriptures that he believes otherwise. "Neither having done any good or evil...It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (verse 11, 16) In other words, God choses us for various callings and purposes, not based on our works, either in this life or past lives, but he choses us based on his own purposes. This Rom 9:16-20. Here Paul continues to elaborate and explain why God choses some over others. As noted in previous commentary. This does not apply to ultimate salvation. God is not pre-destining us for Salvation or Damnation. God is predestining us for various callings, missions, families, etc, pertaining to the mortal world. Not only does God pre-destine the family we are born into, he also is partially responsible for our very natures. (Whom he will, he hardeneth) verse 18. The obvious problem with this argument is that that we can say, "well if God made me this way, why can he turn around and condemn me for being this way?" (Why doth he yet find fault?) verse 19. Paul reasons that God should never be questioned because he IS God. "Who art thou that repliest against God?" Verse 20. Nevertheless, Paul also gives us a partial explanation later in the chapter. God doesn't want us to glory in our own works, but only in his grace, the grace available both to Jew and Gentile. The seeming randomness of material blessings and circumstances helps reinforce the truth that works are not responsible for the various divisions we see around us. Paul's argument that God is responsible for our "nature" is a thorny one, but one that merits some discussion. In the scientific world, human behavior is seen as either a response to "nature or nurture," our DNA, or our environment and upbringing. As LDS, we know that there is a third influence upon human behavior: the free-will of our eternal spirit. However, we also know that "nature and nurture" play an important role in our behavior. Even in the scriptures we are admonished to "bring up a child in the way he should go, and when he is older he will not depart from it." We know from science and from rational observation, that much of our individual behavior is the result of "nature and nurture," elements that are both beyond our individual control. Although the free will of our eternal spirit does have remarkable power, it's power for good or ill, is severely limited by the mortal circumstances we are thrust into in this life. Thus as Paul says, God is responsible for much of our nature and environment. We will be judged for the light that is given to us. Where little is given, little is required. Rom 9:22. Another troublesome scripture from the standpoint of pre-destination. Paul is saying that God wants to demonstrate his wrath and his power by damning those "fitted to destruction." This sounds dangerously like God has created some people merely to become the subjects of damnation. However, it is also important to note that God also "endures with longsuffering" these same souls. It is a hard scripture to adequately grasp, because it speaks of the wrath and the longsuffering of God in the same sentence. Will God be merciful to those he has "fitted to destruction" or will he damn them to hell? It is hard to answer this question given the obscurity of the phrasing. On just such obscure scriptures, Christiandom has argued for centuries over the concept of "pre-destination." From an LDS standpoint, it can be argued that God indeed has prepared some people to go to hell, which we call a temporary spirit prison. Their ultimate salvation however, is still in their own hands, as they can always embrace the gospel beyond the veil. God is responsible, or at least allows many innocent children to be born into families that raise them up unto wickedness, "fitted to destruction" if you will. However, it is the beauty of our doctrine that God has revealed to Joseph Smith that there is a way out of hell for all those who didn't have the opportunity to accept the gospel in mortal life. Rom 10:9-10. Verse 9 is a classic scripture used by Evangelicals to support the idea of salvation by confession alone, without works. LDS readers might counter that verse 10 qualifies Paul's statement by adding "believeth unto righteousness" suggesting that only a belief that leads to future righteousness can be considered sufficient for salvation. Interestingly many translations of verse 10 (see related links) leave out the idea that righteousness is included in the fruit of belief. Rom 10:13-15. Here we have a beautiful Climax of words: Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? Rom 11:8. See Isa 6:9ff. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:22: Corporate predestination? See this post by LXXLuthor at the FPR blog. Rom 10:10. See various [11] for a number of different translations of verse 10. Rom 11:6. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of grace, faith, and works. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a

Rom 11:1-5

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 9-11 Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:3. Paul is about to embark upon a complicated explanation of why the Jews are not automatically saved with the children of God by virtue of the promises to their fathers. He prefaces this by saying "I wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren." This he says, perhaps to show in a passionate and dramatic way, how deeply he loves and identifies with his Jewish brethren, so deeply that he'd be willing to be cursed for their sake. This is perhaps similar to Joseph Smith saying he would be willing to go to hell, just for the sake of Emma whom he loved so deeply. Rom 9:6: Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. Paul sets out to counter an argument made by the Jews that they are God's chosen people even if they don't believe in Christ. This is problematic, because the Jews have clearly been given so many special promises from God. However Paul says that being born in the covenant, doesn't nescessarilly make you an heir to the promises. He uses the example of Esau. As a blood descendant of Abraham, wasn't he entitled to the promises of the covenant? No, says Paul, and explains it later in verses 11-15 Rom 9:11-15. Here Paul explains why some people, like Esau, are not included as the true children of Israel. As we noted in the above verses. Paul is countering an argument that practicing Jews, who don't believe in Christ are automatically saved, by virtue of their blood. Paul believes that only those who believe on Christ are saved, not those who are born into a specific group, or who obey the works of the law. To make this argument, Paul is trying to chip away at the foundations of the Jewish theory of superiority by their blood birth. He uses the example of Jacob and Esau. Jacob was younger, but he was chosen by God as the birthright son. Why? Not because of any superiority, or greater works of Isaac. "not of works, but of him that calleth." verse 11. While it is true that Esau turned out to be more wicked, selling his birthright for a bowl of porridge, etc., Paul is saying that God chose Jacob only because that is what He wanted to do, and not because Isaac was more righteous. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." These 5 verses form the foundation of the Christian doctrine of pre-destination. This is because some Christians take these scriptures and apply them as a type for the salvation of every individual. However, Paul was only giving the example of why Esau was not included in the covenant people of Israel who later received the temple ordinances and priesthood. However, we know from many other Pauline scriptures, that those ordinances mean nothing, and that only a belief in Christ is a guarantee of Salvation. With that in mind, as LDS readers, we can rest assured that Jacob, Esau, and everyone else, must first believe in Christ before they can be saved. For Esau, we can assume this came in the Spirit World, when Christ visited the spirits in prison. There is no reason to assume that Esau was not given full salvation in the Celestial Kingdom if he accepted the gospel in it's fulness when given the chance. His rejection from the house of Israel means nothing, and ultimately, Isaac's inclusion also means nothing without belief in Christ. Pre-destination is only a true doctrine in that it determines the nature of our earthly state and calling, or birth into a particular family, or our opportunities to be given certain gifts and opportunities on earth. However, pre-destination does not apply to ultimate salvation. Only our choice to believe in Christ will determine our ultimate salvation according to Paul. Rom 9:11. "Being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil..." Many LDS believe that our standing in this life, even our circumstances are somewhat the result of our deeds in the pre-earth life. While this may be true to a lesser or greater extent, Paul seems to indicate in these scriptures that he believes otherwise. "Neither having done any good or evil...It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (verse 11, 16) In other words, God choses us for various callings and purposes, not based on our works, either in this life or past lives, but he choses us based on his own purposes. This Rom 9:16-20. Here Paul continues to elaborate and explain why God choses some over others. As noted in previous commentary. This does not apply to ultimate salvation. God is not pre-destining us for Salvation or Damnation. God is predestining us for various callings, missions, families, etc, pertaining to the mortal world. Not only does God pre-destine the family we are born into, he also is partially responsible for our very natures. (Whom he will, he hardeneth) verse 18. The obvious problem with this argument is that that we can say, "well if God made me this way, why can he turn around and condemn me for being this way?" (Why doth he yet find fault?) verse 19. Paul reasons that God should never be questioned because he IS God. "Who art thou that repliest against God?" Verse 20. Nevertheless, Paul also gives us a partial explanation later in the chapter. God doesn't want us to glory in our own works, but only in his grace, the grace available both to Jew and Gentile. The seeming randomness of material blessings and circumstances helps reinforce the truth that works are not responsible for the various divisions we see around us. Paul's argument that God is responsible for our "nature" is a thorny one, but one that merits some discussion. In the scientific world, human behavior is seen as either a response to "nature or nurture," our DNA, or our environment and upbringing. As LDS, we know that there is a third influence upon human behavior: the free-will of our eternal spirit. However, we also know that "nature and nurture" play an important role in our behavior. Even in the scriptures we are admonished to "bring up a child in the way he should go, and when he is older he will not depart from it." We know from science and from rational observation, that much of our individual behavior is the result of "nature and nurture," elements that are both beyond our individual control. Although the free will of our eternal spirit does have remarkable power, it's power for good or ill, is severely limited by the mortal circumstances we are thrust into in this life. Thus as Paul says, God is responsible for much of our nature and environment. We will be judged for the light that is given to us. Where little is given, little is required. Rom 9:22. Another troublesome scripture from the standpoint of pre-destination. Paul is saying that God wants to demonstrate his wrath and his power by damning those "fitted to destruction." This sounds dangerously like God has created some people merely to become the subjects of damnation. However, it is also important to note that God also "endures with longsuffering" these same souls. It is a hard scripture to adequately grasp, because it speaks of the wrath and the longsuffering of God in the same sentence. Will God be merciful to those he has "fitted to destruction" or will he damn them to hell? It is hard to answer this question given the obscurity of the phrasing. On just such obscure scriptures, Christiandom has argued for centuries over the concept of "pre-destination." From an LDS standpoint, it can be argued that God indeed has prepared some people to go to hell, which we call a temporary spirit prison. Their ultimate salvation however, is still in their own hands, as they can always embrace the gospel beyond the veil. God is responsible, or at least allows many innocent children to be born into families that raise them up unto wickedness, "fitted to destruction" if you will. However, it is the beauty of our doctrine that God has revealed to Joseph Smith that there is a way out of hell for all those who didn't have the opportunity to accept the gospel in mortal life. Rom 10:9-10. Verse 9 is a classic scripture used by Evangelicals to support the idea of salvation by confession alone, without works. LDS readers might counter that verse 10 qualifies Paul's statement by adding "believeth unto righteousness" suggesting that only a belief that leads to future righteousness can be considered sufficient for salvation. Interestingly many translations of verse 10 (see related links) leave out the idea that righteousness is included in the fruit of belief. Rom 10:13-15. Here we have a beautiful Climax of words: Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? Rom 11:8. See Isa 6:9ff. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:22: Corporate predestination? See this post by LXXLuthor at the FPR blog. Rom 10:10. See various [12] for a number of different translations of verse 10. Rom 11:6. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of grace, faith, and works. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a

Rom 11:6-10

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 9-11 Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:3. Paul is about to embark upon a complicated explanation of why the Jews are not automatically saved with the children of God by virtue of the promises to their fathers. He prefaces this by saying "I wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren." This he says, perhaps to show in a passionate and dramatic way, how deeply he loves and identifies with his Jewish brethren, so deeply that he'd be willing to be cursed for their sake. This is perhaps similar to Joseph Smith saying he would be willing to go to hell, just for the sake of Emma whom he loved so deeply. Rom 9:6: Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. Paul sets out to counter an argument made by the Jews that they are God's chosen people even if they don't believe in Christ. This is problematic, because the Jews have clearly been given so many special promises from God. However Paul says that being born in the covenant, doesn't nescessarilly make you an heir to the promises. He uses the example of Esau. As a blood descendant of Abraham, wasn't he entitled to the promises of the covenant? No, says Paul, and explains it later in verses 11-15 Rom 9:11-15. Here Paul explains why some people, like Esau, are not included as the true children of Israel. As we noted in the above verses. Paul is countering an argument that practicing Jews, who don't believe in Christ are automatically saved, by virtue of their blood. Paul believes that only those who believe on Christ are saved, not those who are born into a specific group, or who obey the works of the law. To make this argument, Paul is trying to chip away at the foundations of the Jewish theory of superiority by their blood birth. He uses the example of Jacob and Esau. Jacob was younger, but he was chosen by God as the birthright son. Why? Not because of any superiority, or greater works of Isaac. "not of works, but of him that calleth." verse 11. While it is true that Esau turned out to be more wicked, selling his birthright for a bowl of porridge, etc., Paul is saying that God chose Jacob only because that is what He wanted to do, and not because Isaac was more righteous. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." These 5 verses form the foundation of the Christian doctrine of pre-destination. This is because some Christians take these scriptures and apply them as a type for the salvation of every individual. However, Paul was only giving the example of why Esau was not included in the covenant people of Israel who later received the temple ordinances and priesthood. However, we know from many other Pauline scriptures, that those ordinances mean nothing, and that only a belief in Christ is a guarantee of Salvation. With that in mind, as LDS readers, we can rest assured that Jacob, Esau, and everyone else, must first believe in Christ before they can be saved. For Esau, we can assume this came in the Spirit World, when Christ visited the spirits in prison. There is no reason to assume that Esau was not given full salvation in the Celestial Kingdom if he accepted the gospel in it's fulness when given the chance. His rejection from the house of Israel means nothing, and ultimately, Isaac's inclusion also means nothing without belief in Christ. Pre-destination is only a true doctrine in that it determines the nature of our earthly state and calling, or birth into a particular family, or our opportunities to be given certain gifts and opportunities on earth. However, pre-destination does not apply to ultimate salvation. Only our choice to believe in Christ will determine our ultimate salvation according to Paul. Rom 9:11. "Being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil..." Many LDS believe that our standing in this life, even our circumstances are somewhat the result of our deeds in the pre-earth life. While this may be true to a lesser or greater extent, Paul seems to indicate in these scriptures that he believes otherwise. "Neither having done any good or evil...It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (verse 11, 16) In other words, God choses us for various callings and purposes, not based on our works, either in this life or past lives, but he choses us based on his own purposes. This Rom 9:16-20. Here Paul continues to elaborate and explain why God choses some over others. As noted in previous commentary. This does not apply to ultimate salvation. God is not pre-destining us for Salvation or Damnation. God is predestining us for various callings, missions, families, etc, pertaining to the mortal world. Not only does God pre-destine the family we are born into, he also is partially responsible for our very natures. (Whom he will, he hardeneth) verse 18. The obvious problem with this argument is that that we can say, "well if God made me this way, why can he turn around and condemn me for being this way?" (Why doth he yet find fault?) verse 19. Paul reasons that God should never be questioned because he IS God. "Who art thou that repliest against God?" Verse 20. Nevertheless, Paul also gives us a partial explanation later in the chapter. God doesn't want us to glory in our own works, but only in his grace, the grace available both to Jew and Gentile. The seeming randomness of material blessings and circumstances helps reinforce the truth that works are not responsible for the various divisions we see around us. Paul's argument that God is responsible for our "nature" is a thorny one, but one that merits some discussion. In the scientific world, human behavior is seen as either a response to "nature or nurture," our DNA, or our environment and upbringing. As LDS, we know that there is a third influence upon human behavior: the free-will of our eternal spirit. However, we also know that "nature and nurture" play an important role in our behavior. Even in the scriptures we are admonished to "bring up a child in the way he should go, and when he is older he will not depart from it." We know from science and from rational observation, that much of our individual behavior is the result of "nature and nurture," elements that are both beyond our individual control. Although the free will of our eternal spirit does have remarkable power, it's power for good or ill, is severely limited by the mortal circumstances we are thrust into in this life. Thus as Paul says, God is responsible for much of our nature and environment. We will be judged for the light that is given to us. Where little is given, little is required. Rom 9:22. Another troublesome scripture from the standpoint of pre-destination. Paul is saying that God wants to demonstrate his wrath and his power by damning those "fitted to destruction." This sounds dangerously like God has created some people merely to become the subjects of damnation. However, it is also important to note that God also "endures with longsuffering" these same souls. It is a hard scripture to adequately grasp, because it speaks of the wrath and the longsuffering of God in the same sentence. Will God be merciful to those he has "fitted to destruction" or will he damn them to hell? It is hard to answer this question given the obscurity of the phrasing. On just such obscure scriptures, Christiandom has argued for centuries over the concept of "pre-destination." From an LDS standpoint, it can be argued that God indeed has prepared some people to go to hell, which we call a temporary spirit prison. Their ultimate salvation however, is still in their own hands, as they can always embrace the gospel beyond the veil. God is responsible, or at least allows many innocent children to be born into families that raise them up unto wickedness, "fitted to destruction" if you will. However, it is the beauty of our doctrine that God has revealed to Joseph Smith that there is a way out of hell for all those who didn't have the opportunity to accept the gospel in mortal life. Rom 10:9-10. Verse 9 is a classic scripture used by Evangelicals to support the idea of salvation by confession alone, without works. LDS readers might counter that verse 10 qualifies Paul's statement by adding "believeth unto righteousness" suggesting that only a belief that leads to future righteousness can be considered sufficient for salvation. Interestingly many translations of verse 10 (see related links) leave out the idea that righteousness is included in the fruit of belief. Rom 10:13-15. Here we have a beautiful Climax of words: Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? Rom 11:8. See Isa 6:9ff. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:22: Corporate predestination? See this post by LXXLuthor at the FPR blog. Rom 10:10. See various [13] for a number of different translations of verse 10. Rom 11:6. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of grace, faith, and works. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a

Rom 11:11-15

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 9-11 Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:3. Paul is about to embark upon a complicated explanation of why the Jews are not automatically saved with the children of God by virtue of the promises to their fathers. He prefaces this by saying "I wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren." This he says, perhaps to show in a passionate and dramatic way, how deeply he loves and identifies with his Jewish brethren, so deeply that he'd be willing to be cursed for their sake. This is perhaps similar to Joseph Smith saying he would be willing to go to hell, just for the sake of Emma whom he loved so deeply. Rom 9:6: Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. Paul sets out to counter an argument made by the Jews that they are God's chosen people even if they don't believe in Christ. This is problematic, because the Jews have clearly been given so many special promises from God. However Paul says that being born in the covenant, doesn't nescessarilly make you an heir to the promises. He uses the example of Esau. As a blood descendant of Abraham, wasn't he entitled to the promises of the covenant? No, says Paul, and explains it later in verses 11-15 Rom 9:11-15. Here Paul explains why some people, like Esau, are not included as the true children of Israel. As we noted in the above verses. Paul is countering an argument that practicing Jews, who don't believe in Christ are automatically saved, by virtue of their blood. Paul believes that only those who believe on Christ are saved, not those who are born into a specific group, or who obey the works of the law. To make this argument, Paul is trying to chip away at the foundations of the Jewish theory of superiority by their blood birth. He uses the example of Jacob and Esau. Jacob was younger, but he was chosen by God as the birthright son. Why? Not because of any superiority, or greater works of Isaac. "not of works, but of him that calleth." verse 11. While it is true that Esau turned out to be more wicked, selling his birthright for a bowl of porridge, etc., Paul is saying that God chose Jacob only because that is what He wanted to do, and not because Isaac was more righteous. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." These 5 verses form the foundation of the Christian doctrine of pre-destination. This is because some Christians take these scriptures and apply them as a type for the salvation of every individual. However, Paul was only giving the example of why Esau was not included in the covenant people of Israel who later received the temple ordinances and priesthood. However, we know from many other Pauline scriptures, that those ordinances mean nothing, and that only a belief in Christ is a guarantee of Salvation. With that in mind, as LDS readers, we can rest assured that Jacob, Esau, and everyone else, must first believe in Christ before they can be saved. For Esau, we can assume this came in the Spirit World, when Christ visited the spirits in prison. There is no reason to assume that Esau was not given full salvation in the Celestial Kingdom if he accepted the gospel in it's fulness when given the chance. His rejection from the house of Israel means nothing, and ultimately, Isaac's inclusion also means nothing without belief in Christ. Pre-destination is only a true doctrine in that it determines the nature of our earthly state and calling, or birth into a particular family, or our opportunities to be given certain gifts and opportunities on earth. However, pre-destination does not apply to ultimate salvation. Only our choice to believe in Christ will determine our ultimate salvation according to Paul. Rom 9:11. "Being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil..." Many LDS believe that our standing in this life, even our circumstances are somewhat the result of our deeds in the pre-earth life. While this may be true to a lesser or greater extent, Paul seems to indicate in these scriptures that he believes otherwise. "Neither having done any good or evil...It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (verse 11, 16) In other words, God choses us for various callings and purposes, not based on our works, either in this life or past lives, but he choses us based on his own purposes. This Rom 9:16-20. Here Paul continues to elaborate and explain why God choses some over others. As noted in previous commentary. This does not apply to ultimate salvation. God is not pre-destining us for Salvation or Damnation. God is predestining us for various callings, missions, families, etc, pertaining to the mortal world. Not only does God pre-destine the family we are born into, he also is partially responsible for our very natures. (Whom he will, he hardeneth) verse 18. The obvious problem with this argument is that that we can say, "well if God made me this way, why can he turn around and condemn me for being this way?" (Why doth he yet find fault?) verse 19. Paul reasons that God should never be questioned because he IS God. "Who art thou that repliest against God?" Verse 20. Nevertheless, Paul also gives us a partial explanation later in the chapter. God doesn't want us to glory in our own works, but only in his grace, the grace available both to Jew and Gentile. The seeming randomness of material blessings and circumstances helps reinforce the truth that works are not responsible for the various divisions we see around us. Paul's argument that God is responsible for our "nature" is a thorny one, but one that merits some discussion. In the scientific world, human behavior is seen as either a response to "nature or nurture," our DNA, or our environment and upbringing. As LDS, we know that there is a third influence upon human behavior: the free-will of our eternal spirit. However, we also know that "nature and nurture" play an important role in our behavior. Even in the scriptures we are admonished to "bring up a child in the way he should go, and when he is older he will not depart from it." We know from science and from rational observation, that much of our individual behavior is the result of "nature and nurture," elements that are both beyond our individual control. Although the free will of our eternal spirit does have remarkable power, it's power for good or ill, is severely limited by the mortal circumstances we are thrust into in this life. Thus as Paul says, God is responsible for much of our nature and environment. We will be judged for the light that is given to us. Where little is given, little is required. Rom 9:22. Another troublesome scripture from the standpoint of pre-destination. Paul is saying that God wants to demonstrate his wrath and his power by damning those "fitted to destruction." This sounds dangerously like God has created some people merely to become the subjects of damnation. However, it is also important to note that God also "endures with longsuffering" these same souls. It is a hard scripture to adequately grasp, because it speaks of the wrath and the longsuffering of God in the same sentence. Will God be merciful to those he has "fitted to destruction" or will he damn them to hell? It is hard to answer this question given the obscurity of the phrasing. On just such obscure scriptures, Christiandom has argued for centuries over the concept of "pre-destination." From an LDS standpoint, it can be argued that God indeed has prepared some people to go to hell, which we call a temporary spirit prison. Their ultimate salvation however, is still in their own hands, as they can always embrace the gospel beyond the veil. God is responsible, or at least allows many innocent children to be born into families that raise them up unto wickedness, "fitted to destruction" if you will. However, it is the beauty of our doctrine that God has revealed to Joseph Smith that there is a way out of hell for all those who didn't have the opportunity to accept the gospel in mortal life. Rom 10:9-10. Verse 9 is a classic scripture used by Evangelicals to support the idea of salvation by confession alone, without works. LDS readers might counter that verse 10 qualifies Paul's statement by adding "believeth unto righteousness" suggesting that only a belief that leads to future righteousness can be considered sufficient for salvation. Interestingly many translations of verse 10 (see related links) leave out the idea that righteousness is included in the fruit of belief. Rom 10:13-15. Here we have a beautiful Climax of words: Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? Rom 11:8. See Isa 6:9ff. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:22: Corporate predestination? See this post by LXXLuthor at the FPR blog. Rom 10:10. See various [14] for a number of different translations of verse 10. Rom 11:6. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of grace, faith, and works. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a

Rom 11:16-20

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 9-11 Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:3. Paul is about to embark upon a complicated explanation of why the Jews are not automatically saved with the children of God by virtue of the promises to their fathers. He prefaces this by saying "I wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren." This he says, perhaps to show in a passionate and dramatic way, how deeply he loves and identifies with his Jewish brethren, so deeply that he'd be willing to be cursed for their sake. This is perhaps similar to Joseph Smith saying he would be willing to go to hell, just for the sake of Emma whom he loved so deeply. Rom 9:6: Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. Paul sets out to counter an argument made by the Jews that they are God's chosen people even if they don't believe in Christ. This is problematic, because the Jews have clearly been given so many special promises from God. However Paul says that being born in the covenant, doesn't nescessarilly make you an heir to the promises. He uses the example of Esau. As a blood descendant of Abraham, wasn't he entitled to the promises of the covenant? No, says Paul, and explains it later in verses 11-15 Rom 9:11-15. Here Paul explains why some people, like Esau, are not included as the true children of Israel. As we noted in the above verses. Paul is countering an argument that practicing Jews, who don't believe in Christ are automatically saved, by virtue of their blood. Paul believes that only those who believe on Christ are saved, not those who are born into a specific group, or who obey the works of the law. To make this argument, Paul is trying to chip away at the foundations of the Jewish theory of superiority by their blood birth. He uses the example of Jacob and Esau. Jacob was younger, but he was chosen by God as the birthright son. Why? Not because of any superiority, or greater works of Isaac. "not of works, but of him that calleth." verse 11. While it is true that Esau turned out to be more wicked, selling his birthright for a bowl of porridge, etc., Paul is saying that God chose Jacob only because that is what He wanted to do, and not because Isaac was more righteous. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." These 5 verses form the foundation of the Christian doctrine of pre-destination. This is because some Christians take these scriptures and apply them as a type for the salvation of every individual. However, Paul was only giving the example of why Esau was not included in the covenant people of Israel who later received the temple ordinances and priesthood. However, we know from many other Pauline scriptures, that those ordinances mean nothing, and that only a belief in Christ is a guarantee of Salvation. With that in mind, as LDS readers, we can rest assured that Jacob, Esau, and everyone else, must first believe in Christ before they can be saved. For Esau, we can assume this came in the Spirit World, when Christ visited the spirits in prison. There is no reason to assume that Esau was not given full salvation in the Celestial Kingdom if he accepted the gospel in it's fulness when given the chance. His rejection from the house of Israel means nothing, and ultimately, Isaac's inclusion also means nothing without belief in Christ. Pre-destination is only a true doctrine in that it determines the nature of our earthly state and calling, or birth into a particular family, or our opportunities to be given certain gifts and opportunities on earth. However, pre-destination does not apply to ultimate salvation. Only our choice to believe in Christ will determine our ultimate salvation according to Paul. Rom 9:11. "Being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil..." Many LDS believe that our standing in this life, even our circumstances are somewhat the result of our deeds in the pre-earth life. While this may be true to a lesser or greater extent, Paul seems to indicate in these scriptures that he believes otherwise. "Neither having done any good or evil...It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (verse 11, 16) In other words, God choses us for various callings and purposes, not based on our works, either in this life or past lives, but he choses us based on his own purposes. This Rom 9:16-20. Here Paul continues to elaborate and explain why God choses some over others. As noted in previous commentary. This does not apply to ultimate salvation. God is not pre-destining us for Salvation or Damnation. God is predestining us for various callings, missions, families, etc, pertaining to the mortal world. Not only does God pre-destine the family we are born into, he also is partially responsible for our very natures. (Whom he will, he hardeneth) verse 18. The obvious problem with this argument is that that we can say, "well if God made me this way, why can he turn around and condemn me for being this way?" (Why doth he yet find fault?) verse 19. Paul reasons that God should never be questioned because he IS God. "Who art thou that repliest against God?" Verse 20. Nevertheless, Paul also gives us a partial explanation later in the chapter. God doesn't want us to glory in our own works, but only in his grace, the grace available both to Jew and Gentile. The seeming randomness of material blessings and circumstances helps reinforce the truth that works are not responsible for the various divisions we see around us. Paul's argument that God is responsible for our "nature" is a thorny one, but one that merits some discussion. In the scientific world, human behavior is seen as either a response to "nature or nurture," our DNA, or our environment and upbringing. As LDS, we know that there is a third influence upon human behavior: the free-will of our eternal spirit. However, we also know that "nature and nurture" play an important role in our behavior. Even in the scriptures we are admonished to "bring up a child in the way he should go, and when he is older he will not depart from it." We know from science and from rational observation, that much of our individual behavior is the result of "nature and nurture," elements that are both beyond our individual control. Although the free will of our eternal spirit does have remarkable power, it's power for good or ill, is severely limited by the mortal circumstances we are thrust into in this life. Thus as Paul says, God is responsible for much of our nature and environment. We will be judged for the light that is given to us. Where little is given, little is required. Rom 9:22. Another troublesome scripture from the standpoint of pre-destination. Paul is saying that God wants to demonstrate his wrath and his power by damning those "fitted to destruction." This sounds dangerously like God has created some people merely to become the subjects of damnation. However, it is also important to note that God also "endures with longsuffering" these same souls. It is a hard scripture to adequately grasp, because it speaks of the wrath and the longsuffering of God in the same sentence. Will God be merciful to those he has "fitted to destruction" or will he damn them to hell? It is hard to answer this question given the obscurity of the phrasing. On just such obscure scriptures, Christiandom has argued for centuries over the concept of "pre-destination." From an LDS standpoint, it can be argued that God indeed has prepared some people to go to hell, which we call a temporary spirit prison. Their ultimate salvation however, is still in their own hands, as they can always embrace the gospel beyond the veil. God is responsible, or at least allows many innocent children to be born into families that raise them up unto wickedness, "fitted to destruction" if you will. However, it is the beauty of our doctrine that God has revealed to Joseph Smith that there is a way out of hell for all those who didn't have the opportunity to accept the gospel in mortal life. Rom 10:9-10. Verse 9 is a classic scripture used by Evangelicals to support the idea of salvation by confession alone, without works. LDS readers might counter that verse 10 qualifies Paul's statement by adding "believeth unto righteousness" suggesting that only a belief that leads to future righteousness can be considered sufficient for salvation. Interestingly many translations of verse 10 (see related links) leave out the idea that righteousness is included in the fruit of belief. Rom 10:13-15. Here we have a beautiful Climax of words: Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? Rom 11:8. See Isa 6:9ff. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:22: Corporate predestination? See this post by LXXLuthor at the FPR blog. Rom 10:10. See various [15] for a number of different translations of verse 10. Rom 11:6. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of grace, faith, and works. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a

Rom 11:21-25

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 9-11 Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:3. Paul is about to embark upon a complicated explanation of why the Jews are not automatically saved with the children of God by virtue of the promises to their fathers. He prefaces this by saying "I wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren." This he says, perhaps to show in a passionate and dramatic way, how deeply he loves and identifies with his Jewish brethren, so deeply that he'd be willing to be cursed for their sake. This is perhaps similar to Joseph Smith saying he would be willing to go to hell, just for the sake of Emma whom he loved so deeply. Rom 9:6: Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. Paul sets out to counter an argument made by the Jews that they are God's chosen people even if they don't believe in Christ. This is problematic, because the Jews have clearly been given so many special promises from God. However Paul says that being born in the covenant, doesn't nescessarilly make you an heir to the promises. He uses the example of Esau. As a blood descendant of Abraham, wasn't he entitled to the promises of the covenant? No, says Paul, and explains it later in verses 11-15 Rom 9:11-15. Here Paul explains why some people, like Esau, are not included as the true children of Israel. As we noted in the above verses. Paul is countering an argument that practicing Jews, who don't believe in Christ are automatically saved, by virtue of their blood. Paul believes that only those who believe on Christ are saved, not those who are born into a specific group, or who obey the works of the law. To make this argument, Paul is trying to chip away at the foundations of the Jewish theory of superiority by their blood birth. He uses the example of Jacob and Esau. Jacob was younger, but he was chosen by God as the birthright son. Why? Not because of any superiority, or greater works of Isaac. "not of works, but of him that calleth." verse 11. While it is true that Esau turned out to be more wicked, selling his birthright for a bowl of porridge, etc., Paul is saying that God chose Jacob only because that is what He wanted to do, and not because Isaac was more righteous. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." These 5 verses form the foundation of the Christian doctrine of pre-destination. This is because some Christians take these scriptures and apply them as a type for the salvation of every individual. However, Paul was only giving the example of why Esau was not included in the covenant people of Israel who later received the temple ordinances and priesthood. However, we know from many other Pauline scriptures, that those ordinances mean nothing, and that only a belief in Christ is a guarantee of Salvation. With that in mind, as LDS readers, we can rest assured that Jacob, Esau, and everyone else, must first believe in Christ before they can be saved. For Esau, we can assume this came in the Spirit World, when Christ visited the spirits in prison. There is no reason to assume that Esau was not given full salvation in the Celestial Kingdom if he accepted the gospel in it's fulness when given the chance. His rejection from the house of Israel means nothing, and ultimately, Isaac's inclusion also means nothing without belief in Christ. Pre-destination is only a true doctrine in that it determines the nature of our earthly state and calling, or birth into a particular family, or our opportunities to be given certain gifts and opportunities on earth. However, pre-destination does not apply to ultimate salvation. Only our choice to believe in Christ will determine our ultimate salvation according to Paul. Rom 9:11. "Being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil..." Many LDS believe that our standing in this life, even our circumstances are somewhat the result of our deeds in the pre-earth life. While this may be true to a lesser or greater extent, Paul seems to indicate in these scriptures that he believes otherwise. "Neither having done any good or evil...It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (verse 11, 16) In other words, God choses us for various callings and purposes, not based on our works, either in this life or past lives, but he choses us based on his own purposes. This Rom 9:16-20. Here Paul continues to elaborate and explain why God choses some over others. As noted in previous commentary. This does not apply to ultimate salvation. God is not pre-destining us for Salvation or Damnation. God is predestining us for various callings, missions, families, etc, pertaining to the mortal world. Not only does God pre-destine the family we are born into, he also is partially responsible for our very natures. (Whom he will, he hardeneth) verse 18. The obvious problem with this argument is that that we can say, "well if God made me this way, why can he turn around and condemn me for being this way?" (Why doth he yet find fault?) verse 19. Paul reasons that God should never be questioned because he IS God. "Who art thou that repliest against God?" Verse 20. Nevertheless, Paul also gives us a partial explanation later in the chapter. God doesn't want us to glory in our own works, but only in his grace, the grace available both to Jew and Gentile. The seeming randomness of material blessings and circumstances helps reinforce the truth that works are not responsible for the various divisions we see around us. Paul's argument that God is responsible for our "nature" is a thorny one, but one that merits some discussion. In the scientific world, human behavior is seen as either a response to "nature or nurture," our DNA, or our environment and upbringing. As LDS, we know that there is a third influence upon human behavior: the free-will of our eternal spirit. However, we also know that "nature and nurture" play an important role in our behavior. Even in the scriptures we are admonished to "bring up a child in the way he should go, and when he is older he will not depart from it." We know from science and from rational observation, that much of our individual behavior is the result of "nature and nurture," elements that are both beyond our individual control. Although the free will of our eternal spirit does have remarkable power, it's power for good or ill, is severely limited by the mortal circumstances we are thrust into in this life. Thus as Paul says, God is responsible for much of our nature and environment. We will be judged for the light that is given to us. Where little is given, little is required. Rom 9:22. Another troublesome scripture from the standpoint of pre-destination. Paul is saying that God wants to demonstrate his wrath and his power by damning those "fitted to destruction." This sounds dangerously like God has created some people merely to become the subjects of damnation. However, it is also important to note that God also "endures with longsuffering" these same souls. It is a hard scripture to adequately grasp, because it speaks of the wrath and the longsuffering of God in the same sentence. Will God be merciful to those he has "fitted to destruction" or will he damn them to hell? It is hard to answer this question given the obscurity of the phrasing. On just such obscure scriptures, Christiandom has argued for centuries over the concept of "pre-destination." From an LDS standpoint, it can be argued that God indeed has prepared some people to go to hell, which we call a temporary spirit prison. Their ultimate salvation however, is still in their own hands, as they can always embrace the gospel beyond the veil. God is responsible, or at least allows many innocent children to be born into families that raise them up unto wickedness, "fitted to destruction" if you will. However, it is the beauty of our doctrine that God has revealed to Joseph Smith that there is a way out of hell for all those who didn't have the opportunity to accept the gospel in mortal life. Rom 10:9-10. Verse 9 is a classic scripture used by Evangelicals to support the idea of salvation by confession alone, without works. LDS readers might counter that verse 10 qualifies Paul's statement by adding "believeth unto righteousness" suggesting that only a belief that leads to future righteousness can be considered sufficient for salvation. Interestingly many translations of verse 10 (see related links) leave out the idea that righteousness is included in the fruit of belief. Rom 10:13-15. Here we have a beautiful Climax of words: Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? Rom 11:8. See Isa 6:9ff. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:22: Corporate predestination? See this post by LXXLuthor at the FPR blog. Rom 10:10. See various [16] for a number of different translations of verse 10. Rom 11:6. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of grace, faith, and works. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a

Rom 11:26-30

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 9-11 Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:3. Paul is about to embark upon a complicated explanation of why the Jews are not automatically saved with the children of God by virtue of the promises to their fathers. He prefaces this by saying "I wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren." This he says, perhaps to show in a passionate and dramatic way, how deeply he loves and identifies with his Jewish brethren, so deeply that he'd be willing to be cursed for their sake. This is perhaps similar to Joseph Smith saying he would be willing to go to hell, just for the sake of Emma whom he loved so deeply. Rom 9:6: Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. Paul sets out to counter an argument made by the Jews that they are God's chosen people even if they don't believe in Christ. This is problematic, because the Jews have clearly been given so many special promises from God. However Paul says that being born in the covenant, doesn't nescessarilly make you an heir to the promises. He uses the example of Esau. As a blood descendant of Abraham, wasn't he entitled to the promises of the covenant? No, says Paul, and explains it later in verses 11-15 Rom 9:11-15. Here Paul explains why some people, like Esau, are not included as the true children of Israel. As we noted in the above verses. Paul is countering an argument that practicing Jews, who don't believe in Christ are automatically saved, by virtue of their blood. Paul believes that only those who believe on Christ are saved, not those who are born into a specific group, or who obey the works of the law. To make this argument, Paul is trying to chip away at the foundations of the Jewish theory of superiority by their blood birth. He uses the example of Jacob and Esau. Jacob was younger, but he was chosen by God as the birthright son. Why? Not because of any superiority, or greater works of Isaac. "not of works, but of him that calleth." verse 11. While it is true that Esau turned out to be more wicked, selling his birthright for a bowl of porridge, etc., Paul is saying that God chose Jacob only because that is what He wanted to do, and not because Isaac was more righteous. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." These 5 verses form the foundation of the Christian doctrine of pre-destination. This is because some Christians take these scriptures and apply them as a type for the salvation of every individual. However, Paul was only giving the example of why Esau was not included in the covenant people of Israel who later received the temple ordinances and priesthood. However, we know from many other Pauline scriptures, that those ordinances mean nothing, and that only a belief in Christ is a guarantee of Salvation. With that in mind, as LDS readers, we can rest assured that Jacob, Esau, and everyone else, must first believe in Christ before they can be saved. For Esau, we can assume this came in the Spirit World, when Christ visited the spirits in prison. There is no reason to assume that Esau was not given full salvation in the Celestial Kingdom if he accepted the gospel in it's fulness when given the chance. His rejection from the house of Israel means nothing, and ultimately, Isaac's inclusion also means nothing without belief in Christ. Pre-destination is only a true doctrine in that it determines the nature of our earthly state and calling, or birth into a particular family, or our opportunities to be given certain gifts and opportunities on earth. However, pre-destination does not apply to ultimate salvation. Only our choice to believe in Christ will determine our ultimate salvation according to Paul. Rom 9:11. "Being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil..." Many LDS believe that our standing in this life, even our circumstances are somewhat the result of our deeds in the pre-earth life. While this may be true to a lesser or greater extent, Paul seems to indicate in these scriptures that he believes otherwise. "Neither having done any good or evil...It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (verse 11, 16) In other words, God choses us for various callings and purposes, not based on our works, either in this life or past lives, but he choses us based on his own purposes. This Rom 9:16-20. Here Paul continues to elaborate and explain why God choses some over others. As noted in previous commentary. This does not apply to ultimate salvation. God is not pre-destining us for Salvation or Damnation. God is predestining us for various callings, missions, families, etc, pertaining to the mortal world. Not only does God pre-destine the family we are born into, he also is partially responsible for our very natures. (Whom he will, he hardeneth) verse 18. The obvious problem with this argument is that that we can say, "well if God made me this way, why can he turn around and condemn me for being this way?" (Why doth he yet find fault?) verse 19. Paul reasons that God should never be questioned because he IS God. "Who art thou that repliest against God?" Verse 20. Nevertheless, Paul also gives us a partial explanation later in the chapter. God doesn't want us to glory in our own works, but only in his grace, the grace available both to Jew and Gentile. The seeming randomness of material blessings and circumstances helps reinforce the truth that works are not responsible for the various divisions we see around us. Paul's argument that God is responsible for our "nature" is a thorny one, but one that merits some discussion. In the scientific world, human behavior is seen as either a response to "nature or nurture," our DNA, or our environment and upbringing. As LDS, we know that there is a third influence upon human behavior: the free-will of our eternal spirit. However, we also know that "nature and nurture" play an important role in our behavior. Even in the scriptures we are admonished to "bring up a child in the way he should go, and when he is older he will not depart from it." We know from science and from rational observation, that much of our individual behavior is the result of "nature and nurture," elements that are both beyond our individual control. Although the free will of our eternal spirit does have remarkable power, it's power for good or ill, is severely limited by the mortal circumstances we are thrust into in this life. Thus as Paul says, God is responsible for much of our nature and environment. We will be judged for the light that is given to us. Where little is given, little is required. Rom 9:22. Another troublesome scripture from the standpoint of pre-destination. Paul is saying that God wants to demonstrate his wrath and his power by damning those "fitted to destruction." This sounds dangerously like God has created some people merely to become the subjects of damnation. However, it is also important to note that God also "endures with longsuffering" these same souls. It is a hard scripture to adequately grasp, because it speaks of the wrath and the longsuffering of God in the same sentence. Will God be merciful to those he has "fitted to destruction" or will he damn them to hell? It is hard to answer this question given the obscurity of the phrasing. On just such obscure scriptures, Christiandom has argued for centuries over the concept of "pre-destination." From an LDS standpoint, it can be argued that God indeed has prepared some people to go to hell, which we call a temporary spirit prison. Their ultimate salvation however, is still in their own hands, as they can always embrace the gospel beyond the veil. God is responsible, or at least allows many innocent children to be born into families that raise them up unto wickedness, "fitted to destruction" if you will. However, it is the beauty of our doctrine that God has revealed to Joseph Smith that there is a way out of hell for all those who didn't have the opportunity to accept the gospel in mortal life. Rom 10:9-10. Verse 9 is a classic scripture used by Evangelicals to support the idea of salvation by confession alone, without works. LDS readers might counter that verse 10 qualifies Paul's statement by adding "believeth unto righteousness" suggesting that only a belief that leads to future righteousness can be considered sufficient for salvation. Interestingly many translations of verse 10 (see related links) leave out the idea that righteousness is included in the fruit of belief. Rom 10:13-15. Here we have a beautiful Climax of words: Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? Rom 11:8. See Isa 6:9ff. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:22: Corporate predestination? See this post by LXXLuthor at the FPR blog. Rom 10:10. See various [17] for a number of different translations of verse 10. Rom 11:6. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of grace, faith, and works. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a

Rom 11:31-36

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 9-11 Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:3. Paul is about to embark upon a complicated explanation of why the Jews are not automatically saved with the children of God by virtue of the promises to their fathers. He prefaces this by saying "I wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren." This he says, perhaps to show in a passionate and dramatic way, how deeply he loves and identifies with his Jewish brethren, so deeply that he'd be willing to be cursed for their sake. This is perhaps similar to Joseph Smith saying he would be willing to go to hell, just for the sake of Emma whom he loved so deeply. Rom 9:6: Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. Paul sets out to counter an argument made by the Jews that they are God's chosen people even if they don't believe in Christ. This is problematic, because the Jews have clearly been given so many special promises from God. However Paul says that being born in the covenant, doesn't nescessarilly make you an heir to the promises. He uses the example of Esau. As a blood descendant of Abraham, wasn't he entitled to the promises of the covenant? No, says Paul, and explains it later in verses 11-15 Rom 9:11-15. Here Paul explains why some people, like Esau, are not included as the true children of Israel. As we noted in the above verses. Paul is countering an argument that practicing Jews, who don't believe in Christ are automatically saved, by virtue of their blood. Paul believes that only those who believe on Christ are saved, not those who are born into a specific group, or who obey the works of the law. To make this argument, Paul is trying to chip away at the foundations of the Jewish theory of superiority by their blood birth. He uses the example of Jacob and Esau. Jacob was younger, but he was chosen by God as the birthright son. Why? Not because of any superiority, or greater works of Isaac. "not of works, but of him that calleth." verse 11. While it is true that Esau turned out to be more wicked, selling his birthright for a bowl of porridge, etc., Paul is saying that God chose Jacob only because that is what He wanted to do, and not because Isaac was more righteous. "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." These 5 verses form the foundation of the Christian doctrine of pre-destination. This is because some Christians take these scriptures and apply them as a type for the salvation of every individual. However, Paul was only giving the example of why Esau was not included in the covenant people of Israel who later received the temple ordinances and priesthood. However, we know from many other Pauline scriptures, that those ordinances mean nothing, and that only a belief in Christ is a guarantee of Salvation. With that in mind, as LDS readers, we can rest assured that Jacob, Esau, and everyone else, must first believe in Christ before they can be saved. For Esau, we can assume this came in the Spirit World, when Christ visited the spirits in prison. There is no reason to assume that Esau was not given full salvation in the Celestial Kingdom if he accepted the gospel in it's fulness when given the chance. His rejection from the house of Israel means nothing, and ultimately, Isaac's inclusion also means nothing without belief in Christ. Pre-destination is only a true doctrine in that it determines the nature of our earthly state and calling, or birth into a particular family, or our opportunities to be given certain gifts and opportunities on earth. However, pre-destination does not apply to ultimate salvation. Only our choice to believe in Christ will determine our ultimate salvation according to Paul. Rom 9:11. "Being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil..." Many LDS believe that our standing in this life, even our circumstances are somewhat the result of our deeds in the pre-earth life. While this may be true to a lesser or greater extent, Paul seems to indicate in these scriptures that he believes otherwise. "Neither having done any good or evil...It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (verse 11, 16) In other words, God choses us for various callings and purposes, not based on our works, either in this life or past lives, but he choses us based on his own purposes. This Rom 9:16-20. Here Paul continues to elaborate and explain why God choses some over others. As noted in previous commentary. This does not apply to ultimate salvation. God is not pre-destining us for Salvation or Damnation. God is predestining us for various callings, missions, families, etc, pertaining to the mortal world. Not only does God pre-destine the family we are born into, he also is partially responsible for our very natures. (Whom he will, he hardeneth) verse 18. The obvious problem with this argument is that that we can say, "well if God made me this way, why can he turn around and condemn me for being this way?" (Why doth he yet find fault?) verse 19. Paul reasons that God should never be questioned because he IS God. "Who art thou that repliest against God?" Verse 20. Nevertheless, Paul also gives us a partial explanation later in the chapter. God doesn't want us to glory in our own works, but only in his grace, the grace available both to Jew and Gentile. The seeming randomness of material blessings and circumstances helps reinforce the truth that works are not responsible for the various divisions we see around us. Paul's argument that God is responsible for our "nature" is a thorny one, but one that merits some discussion. In the scientific world, human behavior is seen as either a response to "nature or nurture," our DNA, or our environment and upbringing. As LDS, we know that there is a third influence upon human behavior: the free-will of our eternal spirit. However, we also know that "nature and nurture" play an important role in our behavior. Even in the scriptures we are admonished to "bring up a child in the way he should go, and when he is older he will not depart from it." We know from science and from rational observation, that much of our individual behavior is the result of "nature and nurture," elements that are both beyond our individual control. Although the free will of our eternal spirit does have remarkable power, it's power for good or ill, is severely limited by the mortal circumstances we are thrust into in this life. Thus as Paul says, God is responsible for much of our nature and environment. We will be judged for the light that is given to us. Where little is given, little is required. Rom 9:22. Another troublesome scripture from the standpoint of pre-destination. Paul is saying that God wants to demonstrate his wrath and his power by damning those "fitted to destruction." This sounds dangerously like God has created some people merely to become the subjects of damnation. However, it is also important to note that God also "endures with longsuffering" these same souls. It is a hard scripture to adequately grasp, because it speaks of the wrath and the longsuffering of God in the same sentence. Will God be merciful to those he has "fitted to destruction" or will he damn them to hell? It is hard to answer this question given the obscurity of the phrasing. On just such obscure scriptures, Christiandom has argued for centuries over the concept of "pre-destination." From an LDS standpoint, it can be argued that God indeed has prepared some people to go to hell, which we call a temporary spirit prison. Their ultimate salvation however, is still in their own hands, as they can always embrace the gospel beyond the veil. God is responsible, or at least allows many innocent children to be born into families that raise them up unto wickedness, "fitted to destruction" if you will. However, it is the beauty of our doctrine that God has revealed to Joseph Smith that there is a way out of hell for all those who didn't have the opportunity to accept the gospel in mortal life. Rom 10:9-10. Verse 9 is a classic scripture used by Evangelicals to support the idea of salvation by confession alone, without works. LDS readers might counter that verse 10 qualifies Paul's statement by adding "believeth unto righteousness" suggesting that only a belief that leads to future righteousness can be considered sufficient for salvation. Interestingly many translations of verse 10 (see related links) leave out the idea that righteousness is included in the fruit of belief. Rom 10:13-15. Here we have a beautiful Climax of words: Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? Rom 11:8. See Isa 6:9ff. Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 9:22: Corporate predestination? See this post by LXXLuthor at the FPR blog. Rom 10:10. See various [18] for a number of different translations of verse 10. Rom 11:6. See Eph 2:8-10 for a discussion of grace, faith, and works. Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 5-8                      Next page: Chapters 12-15a

Rom 12:1-5

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 11-15a / Verses 12:1-15:13 Previous page: Chapters 9-11                      Next page: Chapters 15b-16 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 12:2: Transformed. The Greek word translated as "transformed" is metamorphoo (a cousin of the English word "metamorphosis"), which means to change to another form. The word is rare in the New Testament. Paul's use of the word in verse 2 may suggest a transformation greater than we can imagine. It is used only three other times in the New Testament: in Matthew 17:2 and Mark 9:2 to discuss Jesus' change at the Transfiguration, and in 2 Corinthians 3:18 to explain our transformation from glory to glory in the image of God. Rom 12:3: According as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Other translations say it this way, "in accordance with the amount of faith which God has alloted each one of us." Here we have evidence that God is responsible for the amount of faith we have in this life. Similar "predestination" issues were covered in Chapter 9. Understanding God's role in our individual gifts helps us be realistic about them. When we feel responsible for the amount of faith we have, or don't have, we may very well resort to pride, or despair. Pride, if we see ourselves as stronger and more disciplined than those with weaker faith, or despair, if we find it seems impossible achieve the kind of faith we see in some of our fellow saints. Paul reminds us that God has given us our place in this world, along with all of our gifts and weaknesses. For some of us, that means humbling ourselves and accepting our imperfections with honesty. For others, it means accepting that our gifts are not ours, but God's. For others, it means acknowledging that we do have gifts and strengths, and refusing to wallow in insecurity and self-deprecation. Rom 12:5: Becoming like Christ. "Becoming like Christ" is one of the great goals of every Saint. However, here on earth, that goal seems hopelessly lofty. Paul gives us a way to achieve that goal. Individually, we cannot become like Christ, but collectively, we become the "body of Christ." Every member has a different gift and mission, and working together, we become like Christ. The idea of the collective is very important in Christianity, either as a family, or as a church. We cannot be saved alone. If we are saved, we must be saved together, in families and congregations. Our individual lack is perfectly compatible within the Body of Christ, because others will have the strengths that we lack. We too will be able to pick up the slack when we have certain gifts that others lack. Rom 12:9. The Greek word translated as "without dissimulation" (anupokritos) in verse 9 means "unfeigned," "sincere" or "without hypocrisy." Rom 12:9: Cleave. The literal meaning of the Greek word translated as "cleave" (kollao) in verse 9 means "glue" or "fasten together." The Greek word translated as "abhor" (apostugeo) finds its only use in the New Testament in this verse. The word comes from root words that mean "to hate" and "to separate." In Greek, then, the contrast between "abhor" and "cleave" is even stronger, or at least more explicit, than it is in English: We are to hate evil and separate ourselves from it while we glue ourselves to what is good. 12:10: Brotherly love. The Greek word translated as "brotherly love" in verse 10 is philadelphia, which refers to the love that brothers and sisters show toward each other. It is related to the Greek word, philostorgos, which is translated here as "kindly affectioned." This is the only use of philostorgos is the New Testament; the word is usually used to refer to the love that parents and children show toward each other. Paul's use of these words suggests that we are to love and care for each other as members of the same family. His use of philostorgos and philadelphia in the same sentence provides a literary parallelism that is lost in translation. Rom 12:16. This discussion begins with verse 14. It is a series of admonitions or commandments about how we should relate to our brothers and sisters, first, and then about how to relate to others. Rom 12:16: Condescend. The Greek word sunapago translated as "condescend" does not mean to be condescending as we would use the word today. It means basically to associate with the lowly. Rom 12:17. The first clause repeats something already taught in Judaism, as we see in several proverbs (e.g., Proverbs 17:13, Proverbs 20:22, and Proverbs 24:29). In the second clause, Paul gives a rule of thumb for deciding what to do: “Take into consideration what everyone thinks is noble [literally ‘beautiful’].” The Hermeneia commentary on Romans (pages 772-73) suggests that it may also depend on Proverbs; it may be an adaptation of Proverbs 3:4. Rom 12:18. The double qualification that begins this verse—”if possible”; “insofar as it depends on you”—suggests that Paul knows how difficult it can be to live at peace with all. This seems to have two directions. The first has to do with me: I may be weak, but I should do what I can to live in peace. The second has to do with others: peace with others doesn’t depend wholly on me, so I can live in peace with them only insofar as it does depend on me. So the verse says that I should try as hard as I can to live in peace with others, recognizing that peace doesn’t completely depend on me. As the Hermeneia commentary on Romans notes, Paul may be alluding to Psalms 34:14 and Mark 9:50 (”Have peace with one another”). Rom 12:19. It is significant that Paul begins this verse by addressing his audience directly as “beloved.” It is a phrase he uses several times in Romans, especially in chapter 16 (verses 5, 8, 9, and 12). He also used it in the beginning of his letter (Romans 1:7). Paul is speaking to his audience, many of whom he knows personally, in personal terms rather than preaching to a general audience, so he uses an appropriate term of address. The King James translation makes clear we are forbidden to avenge ourselves. However, the real question comes in figuring out what Paul means when he says “leave room for the wrath.” If I can’t seek vengeance, then the wrath for which I am leaving room cannot be my wrath. It must be the wrath of God. If we take vengeance, then our wrath has taken the place of the wrath of God. We have substituted ourselves for God which is obviously impious. So, we must leave room for his wrath by not filling up that space with our own. As proof of his teaching, Paul quotes from a Greek version of Deuteronomy 32:35: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ saith the Lord.” Rom 12:20. Paul continues to cite scriptures to make his point, this time quoting Prov 25:21-22 (again quoting from the Greek version of the Old Testament, the Septuagint). The last half of verse 22 contains a promise of reward that Paul does not quote, “and the Lord shall reward thee.” Though the KJV begins this verse with “therefore,” “rather” or “but” is a better translation. The contrast is with the first part of verse 19: “Don’t look for revenge. Instead, feed your enemies . . . .” At first glance, Verse 20 seems like a contradiction of the overall message of the chapter--to love others, even our enemies, following the example of Christ. So what should we make of this verse? A majority of contemporary scholars believe that Prov 25:22 is an allusion to an Egyptian purification ritual in which a person carried a plate of hot coals on his head to signify repentance. In a similar vein, see Isaiah 6:5-7. There Isaiah laments his impurity and contrasts it with the holiness of God. Then a seraph touches a hot coal to Isaiah's lips, and Isaiah is purified. If we interpret the hot coals in this verse as similarly symbolic of purification (or repentance) then Paul may be telling us that by doing good to our enemies we are bringing about their repentance. Other explanations get to the same end by a different route. They take the hot coals as something painful at first which ultimately leads to repentance. In this case hot coals may be shame, pangs of guilt or embarrassment. In either case, most people understand this verse as teaching that if we do good to our enemies we will lead them to repentance. Nevertheless, another understanding is possible, we can read the hot coals as the Lord's vengeance in our behalf. Under this reading verse 19 and 20 say something like "don't take vengeance yourself. By being good to your enemy the Lord will take vengeance for you. And if instead of taking vengeance you are really nice to your enemy, your enemy will suffer terrible vengeance." But note that this reading changes the subject of who it is that heaps the coals. Verse 20 makes the audience the subject "...for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head" whereas the point of verse 19 is that we are not to seek vengeance. So knowing that they cannot seek vengeance themselves, it only makes sense for Paul to call the audience the "heapers" of the coals if we see them as getting vengeance by proxy, as the Lord takes vengeance. In other words, on this reading, Paul is saying, if you are good to your enemies you will get your vengeance. The problem with this reading is that, at least at first glance, it contradicts the overall message of the chapter--love your enemies following the example of Christ. However, the reading may be justified by the fact that we find essentially the same message in D&C 98:45. That verse, like this one, is embedded in a larger discussion of how we should treat our enemies with love. In following the second interpretation given above, the commandment is for us to love our neighbour and our enemy, and to forgive as many times as necessary. God forgives whom He will forgive. He, being omiscient and perfect in all things, is the One to whom final judgement is reserved. Everything that He does is in the interest of greater goodness for all His creations. This is part of why we leave vengeance to Him - because in Him, it's not really about vengeance, but love; for the wronged and those doing the wronging. If we act with compassion towards our enemies, and they in the future choose not to repent (not directly because of our actions, but with the combined effect of all their choices), the good that we have done them will convict them all the more, because they didn't respond to it with good of their own. It's not exactly the good we do them that turns to their condemnation, but the additional evidence, among all their acts, that their hearts are evil/hard/impure/rebellious. Also, although we should love our enemies, God's love and eternal law include punishment for evil acts not repented of. Love doesn't preclude judgement or recompense for wrong done. Acts and desires must have their consequence - but these are usually God's, not ours. So God is 'allowed', or rather required by eternal law and His own justice, to dispense punishments/consequences for evil. Us being loving towards our enemies doesn't contradict Him passing judgement on them or any other consequences they attract. Nor, of course, should it be our motivation. I think here Paul is stating a fact, not recommending a motivation. Rom 12:21. This is a good summary of Paul's teaching in verses 14-20. However, taking it as a summary of that teaching makes the last reading of verse 20 more difficult. Rom 13:1. According to Wesley's notes, Paul in this scripture issues a public apology for the Christian religion, who at the time were associated with the Jews, who were often rebellious to authority. Paul draws a clear distinction between Jewish and Christian attitudes towards civil authority. Christ disappointed the Jews by not liberating them from the civil law of the Romans. Instead, he taught that Jews should uphold the civil law, and render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's. Paul also suggests that civil authorities are ordained of God, and that they are ministers of God for good. Given that many of these powers that be were in fact evil dictators, Paul's statement seems greatly oversimplified. It could simply be that Paul didn't want the Christians to make any trouble. He also wanted it in writing that he strongly encouraged his Saints to obey the civil authorities. Perhaps by being so dogmatic in his support of civil law, he could stave off some of the impending civil persecution that would haunt the early Christian Church. The Christian mission was not to overthrow the government, as corrupt as it was. God would leave that to the barbarians. That was the message for the Christians in that time. However, applying the same advice to all situations is obviously problematic. It is reasonable to assume that Paul might indeed advocate civil disobedience under different circumstances. It is a true principle however that God ordains men, even imperfect or evil men to their positions of power. This fact is demonstrated in the selection of the early Jewish kings. The Prophet Samuel was commanded of God to select Saul to reign over the people as their first king. However, although he was ordained by a prophet of the Lord, Saul turned to wickedness. In the same way that God allows children to be born into the families of the wicked and abusive, God also allows people to be ruled by wicked dictators. Why would God would allow such things as the Holocaust to happen? These are some of the most difficult questions to answer, and they reach to core of the purpose of life on earth and the nature of human suffering. As much as we would like to blame Satan for all these terrible things, Paul reminds us in this scripture, and many others, that God is ultimately in charge, allowing, and even ordaining and orchestrating the collision of events that result in both tragedy and triumph on the civil stage. Satan has a major role of course, the one he played in the Garden of Eden. We LDS understand that God wanted Adam and Eve to eventually partake of the fruit, so in essence, he "used" Satan as the catalyst. Rom 14. In this chapter, Paul mentions a number of controversial "rules" that were practiced by some early Christians, including not eating meat, and observing certain celebrations or feast days. Some members esteemed these rules as essential commandments binding upon all Saints, and others believed that they were unnecessary. In this chapter, Paul tries to reconcile the two groups by validating both points of view, and then suggesting that both sides refrain from imposing their views on others, and judging them harshly. Paul's approach has a number of modern day applications. In our day there are a number of "rules" esteemed highly by some members, and not others. Examples in our day might include: drinking caffeinated sodas, watching rated R movies, certain political affiliations, believing in evolution, limiting the number of children you have, women working outside the home, performing only hymns from the hymn book in sacrament meeting, watching TV on Sunday, paying tithes on gifts, only fasting for a full and complete 24 hours, etc. While not all of these are perfectly compatible with Paul's particular issues, it may be helpful to some to read this chapter with some of these modern day "rules" in mind. While many in the church have passionate opinions and evidences for why certain of these "rules" are in fact essential commandments, others may claim equally passionately that these are not essential rules, citing anecdotes from the lives of General Authorities, or other rationalizations to justify their point of view. We can apply Paul's approach to these "rules" as long as we are careful not to include commandments that have firm, consistent doctrinal basis, such as abstaining from fornication. We can be certain from these scriptures and others, that Paul was more of a "spirit of the law" person than a "letter of the law" person. Those who follow the "letter of the law" Paul characterizes as "weak." Why does he call them weak? Paul believed that the Law of Moses was a taskmaster to bring us to Christ, a lesser law. The higher law is to have the law of Christ written not in tablets of stone but in the fleshy tablets of the heart. Those who still observe the law in it's more minor "letters," like not eating meat, are weaker in their faith. At the same time, those who are weaker are not condemned by Paul. He admonishes them in verse 5, "let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Many of us need the structure of rules and laws, even for minor things, in order to keep us focused on God, and perfect obedience to Him. For those who don't eat meat because they believe it to be an important law, God accepts their sacrifice of faith and obedience to Him. Were they to break the law, they would be under condemnation, for to them, it is wrong, and God holds us responsible for the laws that we believe and accept. Rom 14:14. Here we have evidence of the variability of certain "religious rules and practices." It is true that rules and practices sometimes change from culture to culture, dispensation to dispensation, and person to person. Sometimes these rules have a cultural origin rather than a Biblical or prophetic one. Sometimes these rules come from individual personal revelation for us. And sometimes they come from certain interpretations of the law. Paul says here that God doesn't always care what the rules are. What God cares about, is that each of us is true to what we personally believe. He that "esteemeth anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean." Our own beliefs may sometimes be variable, incomplete, or imperfect, but God does respect them. When we believe something about Him and his rules, He wants us to be true to those beliefs, even when they are incomplete. Again, this has modern day application, as long as we are careful not to apply it to those commandments like fornication, which are clearly forbidden. Rom 14:15. There is a tendency within the church to think that all Saints should believe the same thing and follow the same rules. However, Paul believes that the church should include members that sometimes share different beliefs. He admonishes us to be sensitive to each others beliefs. Using the example of meat, Paul says that it is unwise to eat meat in front of those who would be offended by it. Once I was in the home of my bishop, who had some rated R movies on his shelf. Although I myself was not offended by his library, I know others who would have been. There is a tendency towards self-righteousness on both sides. For example, some members seem to believe that it is impossible to be a good Mormon and a Democrat at the same time. I know of some Democrats who are "self-righteously" eager to share enlighten these "self-righteous" Republican saints. Paul admonishes us to be careful. Christ died for all, and has accepted all who have come unto Him, regardless of their individual beliefs. Shall we try put a wedge between them and Christ, by distracting our brethren by being too eager to enlighten them with our particular beliefs, which they may find offensive? The caveat is that sometimes Paul himself did take stands on issues like these. He seems to contradict his own advice in Galatians 2:11-14. He relates a confrontation he had with Peter over eating with Gentiles. Peter was eating with Gentiles, (forbidden by the Jewish law) and when he saw Christian Jews enter the room, he sheepishly withdrew from the Gentiles, so as to avoid being seen with them. Paul got angry with Peter and reproached him for his actions. In this example however, Peter was avoiding being seen with Gentiles. This was stronger than simply not eating meat, and Peter's actions condoned Christian Jewish prejudice against Christian Gentiles. For those of us who sometimes feel like Paul, that we need to stand up against "close-mindedness" or "prejudice" within the church, we should be very careful. We risk "destroying" the faith of others by doing so. Unless the actions and beliefs of others are truly harming the church, we should not go about removing motes from others eyes, when we surely have a beam in our own. Rom 14:22. When dealing with certain controversial rules or practices within the church, it is sometimes easy to doubt ourselves. There are a multitude of arguments on both sides that can cloud our understanding and cause us to be indecisive. We should remember that God doesn't necessarily care what we choose to believe on a particular controversial issue, as long as we believe it with faith and confidence, following our belief with exactness. "Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth." Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 12:19-20a. Verse 19 and the beginning of verse 20 seem to fit in well with Jesus's command to love our enemies (Matt 5:44). But how are we to understand the end of verse 20? At face value the end of verse 20 suggests that the motivation for doing good to our enemies, as Paul suggests, is not love, but an attempt to harm them. Under that reading this verse does not seem to fit in with Jesus's command to love our enemies. How can we reconcile this? (See also Prov 25:21-22.) Rom 13:1-5. Paul seems to be saying that governments have been ordained of God and exist to promote good. How does this apply in the case of a tyrannical government? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 9-11                      Next page: Chapters 15b-16

Rom 12:6-10

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 11-15a / Verses 12:1-15:13 Previous page: Chapters 9-11                      Next page: Chapters 15b-16 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 12:2: Transformed. The Greek word translated as "transformed" is metamorphoo (a cousin of the English word "metamorphosis"), which means to change to another form. The word is rare in the New Testament. Paul's use of the word in verse 2 may suggest a transformation greater than we can imagine. It is used only three other times in the New Testament: in Matthew 17:2 and Mark 9:2 to discuss Jesus' change at the Transfiguration, and in 2 Corinthians 3:18 to explain our transformation from glory to glory in the image of God. Rom 12:3: According as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Other translations say it this way, "in accordance with the amount of faith which God has alloted each one of us." Here we have evidence that God is responsible for the amount of faith we have in this life. Similar "predestination" issues were covered in Chapter 9. Understanding God's role in our individual gifts helps us be realistic about them. When we feel responsible for the amount of faith we have, or don't have, we may very well resort to pride, or despair. Pride, if we see ourselves as stronger and more disciplined than those with weaker faith, or despair, if we find it seems impossible achieve the kind of faith we see in some of our fellow saints. Paul reminds us that God has given us our place in this world, along with all of our gifts and weaknesses. For some of us, that means humbling ourselves and accepting our imperfections with honesty. For others, it means accepting that our gifts are not ours, but God's. For others, it means acknowledging that we do have gifts and strengths, and refusing to wallow in insecurity and self-deprecation. Rom 12:5: Becoming like Christ. "Becoming like Christ" is one of the great goals of every Saint. However, here on earth, that goal seems hopelessly lofty. Paul gives us a way to achieve that goal. Individually, we cannot become like Christ, but collectively, we become the "body of Christ." Every member has a different gift and mission, and working together, we become like Christ. The idea of the collective is very important in Christianity, either as a family, or as a church. We cannot be saved alone. If we are saved, we must be saved together, in families and congregations. Our individual lack is perfectly compatible within the Body of Christ, because others will have the strengths that we lack. We too will be able to pick up the slack when we have certain gifts that others lack. Rom 12:9. The Greek word translated as "without dissimulation" (anupokritos) in verse 9 means "unfeigned," "sincere" or "without hypocrisy." Rom 12:9: Cleave. The literal meaning of the Greek word translated as "cleave" (kollao) in verse 9 means "glue" or "fasten together." The Greek word translated as "abhor" (apostugeo) finds its only use in the New Testament in this verse. The word comes from root words that mean "to hate" and "to separate." In Greek, then, the contrast between "abhor" and "cleave" is even stronger, or at least more explicit, than it is in English: We are to hate evil and separate ourselves from it while we glue ourselves to what is good. 12:10: Brotherly love. The Greek word translated as "brotherly love" in verse 10 is philadelphia, which refers to the love that brothers and sisters show toward each other. It is related to the Greek word, philostorgos, which is translated here as "kindly affectioned." This is the only use of philostorgos is the New Testament; the word is usually used to refer to the love that parents and children show toward each other. Paul's use of these words suggests that we are to love and care for each other as members of the same family. His use of philostorgos and philadelphia in the same sentence provides a literary parallelism that is lost in translation. Rom 12:16. This discussion begins with verse 14. It is a series of admonitions or commandments about how we should relate to our brothers and sisters, first, and then about how to relate to others. Rom 12:16: Condescend. The Greek word sunapago translated as "condescend" does not mean to be condescending as we would use the word today. It means basically to associate with the lowly. Rom 12:17. The first clause repeats something already taught in Judaism, as we see in several proverbs (e.g., Proverbs 17:13, Proverbs 20:22, and Proverbs 24:29). In the second clause, Paul gives a rule of thumb for deciding what to do: “Take into consideration what everyone thinks is noble [literally ‘beautiful’].” The Hermeneia commentary on Romans (pages 772-73) suggests that it may also depend on Proverbs; it may be an adaptation of Proverbs 3:4. Rom 12:18. The double qualification that begins this verse—”if possible”; “insofar as it depends on you”—suggests that Paul knows how difficult it can be to live at peace with all. This seems to have two directions. The first has to do with me: I may be weak, but I should do what I can to live in peace. The second has to do with others: peace with others doesn’t depend wholly on me, so I can live in peace with them only insofar as it does depend on me. So the verse says that I should try as hard as I can to live in peace with others, recognizing that peace doesn’t completely depend on me. As the Hermeneia commentary on Romans notes, Paul may be alluding to Psalms 34:14 and Mark 9:50 (”Have peace with one another”). Rom 12:19. It is significant that Paul begins this verse by addressing his audience directly as “beloved.” It is a phrase he uses several times in Romans, especially in chapter 16 (verses 5, 8, 9, and 12). He also used it in the beginning of his letter (Romans 1:7). Paul is speaking to his audience, many of whom he knows personally, in personal terms rather than preaching to a general audience, so he uses an appropriate term of address. The King James translation makes clear we are forbidden to avenge ourselves. However, the real question comes in figuring out what Paul means when he says “leave room for the wrath.” If I can’t seek vengeance, then the wrath for which I am leaving room cannot be my wrath. It must be the wrath of God. If we take vengeance, then our wrath has taken the place of the wrath of God. We have substituted ourselves for God which is obviously impious. So, we must leave room for his wrath by not filling up that space with our own. As proof of his teaching, Paul quotes from a Greek version of Deuteronomy 32:35: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ saith the Lord.” Rom 12:20. Paul continues to cite scriptures to make his point, this time quoting Prov 25:21-22 (again quoting from the Greek version of the Old Testament, the Septuagint). The last half of verse 22 contains a promise of reward that Paul does not quote, “and the Lord shall reward thee.” Though the KJV begins this verse with “therefore,” “rather” or “but” is a better translation. The contrast is with the first part of verse 19: “Don’t look for revenge. Instead, feed your enemies . . . .” At first glance, Verse 20 seems like a contradiction of the overall message of the chapter--to love others, even our enemies, following the example of Christ. So what should we make of this verse? A majority of contemporary scholars believe that Prov 25:22 is an allusion to an Egyptian purification ritual in which a person carried a plate of hot coals on his head to signify repentance. In a similar vein, see Isaiah 6:5-7. There Isaiah laments his impurity and contrasts it with the holiness of God. Then a seraph touches a hot coal to Isaiah's lips, and Isaiah is purified. If we interpret the hot coals in this verse as similarly symbolic of purification (or repentance) then Paul may be telling us that by doing good to our enemies we are bringing about their repentance. Other explanations get to the same end by a different route. They take the hot coals as something painful at first which ultimately leads to repentance. In this case hot coals may be shame, pangs of guilt or embarrassment. In either case, most people understand this verse as teaching that if we do good to our enemies we will lead them to repentance. Nevertheless, another understanding is possible, we can read the hot coals as the Lord's vengeance in our behalf. Under this reading verse 19 and 20 say something like "don't take vengeance yourself. By being good to your enemy the Lord will take vengeance for you. And if instead of taking vengeance you are really nice to your enemy, your enemy will suffer terrible vengeance." But note that this reading changes the subject of who it is that heaps the coals. Verse 20 makes the audience the subject "...for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head" whereas the point of verse 19 is that we are not to seek vengeance. So knowing that they cannot seek vengeance themselves, it only makes sense for Paul to call the audience the "heapers" of the coals if we see them as getting vengeance by proxy, as the Lord takes vengeance. In other words, on this reading, Paul is saying, if you are good to your enemies you will get your vengeance. The problem with this reading is that, at least at first glance, it contradicts the overall message of the chapter--love your enemies following the example of Christ. However, the reading may be justified by the fact that we find essentially the same message in D&C 98:45. That verse, like this one, is embedded in a larger discussion of how we should treat our enemies with love. In following the second interpretation given above, the commandment is for us to love our neighbour and our enemy, and to forgive as many times as necessary. God forgives whom He will forgive. He, being omiscient and perfect in all things, is the One to whom final judgement is reserved. Everything that He does is in the interest of greater goodness for all His creations. This is part of why we leave vengeance to Him - because in Him, it's not really about vengeance, but love; for the wronged and those doing the wronging. If we act with compassion towards our enemies, and they in the future choose not to repent (not directly because of our actions, but with the combined effect of all their choices), the good that we have done them will convict them all the more, because they didn't respond to it with good of their own. It's not exactly the good we do them that turns to their condemnation, but the additional evidence, among all their acts, that their hearts are evil/hard/impure/rebellious. Also, although we should love our enemies, God's love and eternal law include punishment for evil acts not repented of. Love doesn't preclude judgement or recompense for wrong done. Acts and desires must have their consequence - but these are usually God's, not ours. So God is 'allowed', or rather required by eternal law and His own justice, to dispense punishments/consequences for evil. Us being loving towards our enemies doesn't contradict Him passing judgement on them or any other consequences they attract. Nor, of course, should it be our motivation. I think here Paul is stating a fact, not recommending a motivation. Rom 12:21. This is a good summary of Paul's teaching in verses 14-20. However, taking it as a summary of that teaching makes the last reading of verse 20 more difficult. Rom 13:1. According to Wesley's notes, Paul in this scripture issues a public apology for the Christian religion, who at the time were associated with the Jews, who were often rebellious to authority. Paul draws a clear distinction between Jewish and Christian attitudes towards civil authority. Christ disappointed the Jews by not liberating them from the civil law of the Romans. Instead, he taught that Jews should uphold the civil law, and render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's. Paul also suggests that civil authorities are ordained of God, and that they are ministers of God for good. Given that many of these powers that be were in fact evil dictators, Paul's statement seems greatly oversimplified. It could simply be that Paul didn't want the Christians to make any trouble. He also wanted it in writing that he strongly encouraged his Saints to obey the civil authorities. Perhaps by being so dogmatic in his support of civil law, he could stave off some of the impending civil persecution that would haunt the early Christian Church. The Christian mission was not to overthrow the government, as corrupt as it was. God would leave that to the barbarians. That was the message for the Christians in that time. However, applying the same advice to all situations is obviously problematic. It is reasonable to assume that Paul might indeed advocate civil disobedience under different circumstances. It is a true principle however that God ordains men, even imperfect or evil men to their positions of power. This fact is demonstrated in the selection of the early Jewish kings. The Prophet Samuel was commanded of God to select Saul to reign over the people as their first king. However, although he was ordained by a prophet of the Lord, Saul turned to wickedness. In the same way that God allows children to be born into the families of the wicked and abusive, God also allows people to be ruled by wicked dictators. Why would God would allow such things as the Holocaust to happen? These are some of the most difficult questions to answer, and they reach to core of the purpose of life on earth and the nature of human suffering. As much as we would like to blame Satan for all these terrible things, Paul reminds us in this scripture, and many others, that God is ultimately in charge, allowing, and even ordaining and orchestrating the collision of events that result in both tragedy and triumph on the civil stage. Satan has a major role of course, the one he played in the Garden of Eden. We LDS understand that God wanted Adam and Eve to eventually partake of the fruit, so in essence, he "used" Satan as the catalyst. Rom 14. In this chapter, Paul mentions a number of controversial "rules" that were practiced by some early Christians, including not eating meat, and observing certain celebrations or feast days. Some members esteemed these rules as essential commandments binding upon all Saints, and others believed that they were unnecessary. In this chapter, Paul tries to reconcile the two groups by validating both points of view, and then suggesting that both sides refrain from imposing their views on others, and judging them harshly. Paul's approach has a number of modern day applications. In our day there are a number of "rules" esteemed highly by some members, and not others. Examples in our day might include: drinking caffeinated sodas, watching rated R movies, certain political affiliations, believing in evolution, limiting the number of children you have, women working outside the home, performing only hymns from the hymn book in sacrament meeting, watching TV on Sunday, paying tithes on gifts, only fasting for a full and complete 24 hours, etc. While not all of these are perfectly compatible with Paul's particular issues, it may be helpful to some to read this chapter with some of these modern day "rules" in mind. While many in the church have passionate opinions and evidences for why certain of these "rules" are in fact essential commandments, others may claim equally passionately that these are not essential rules, citing anecdotes from the lives of General Authorities, or other rationalizations to justify their point of view. We can apply Paul's approach to these "rules" as long as we are careful not to include commandments that have firm, consistent doctrinal basis, such as abstaining from fornication. We can be certain from these scriptures and others, that Paul was more of a "spirit of the law" person than a "letter of the law" person. Those who follow the "letter of the law" Paul characterizes as "weak." Why does he call them weak? Paul believed that the Law of Moses was a taskmaster to bring us to Christ, a lesser law. The higher law is to have the law of Christ written not in tablets of stone but in the fleshy tablets of the heart. Those who still observe the law in it's more minor "letters," like not eating meat, are weaker in their faith. At the same time, those who are weaker are not condemned by Paul. He admonishes them in verse 5, "let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Many of us need the structure of rules and laws, even for minor things, in order to keep us focused on God, and perfect obedience to Him. For those who don't eat meat because they believe it to be an important law, God accepts their sacrifice of faith and obedience to Him. Were they to break the law, they would be under condemnation, for to them, it is wrong, and God holds us responsible for the laws that we believe and accept. Rom 14:14. Here we have evidence of the variability of certain "religious rules and practices." It is true that rules and practices sometimes change from culture to culture, dispensation to dispensation, and person to person. Sometimes these rules have a cultural origin rather than a Biblical or prophetic one. Sometimes these rules come from individual personal revelation for us. And sometimes they come from certain interpretations of the law. Paul says here that God doesn't always care what the rules are. What God cares about, is that each of us is true to what we personally believe. He that "esteemeth anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean." Our own beliefs may sometimes be variable, incomplete, or imperfect, but God does respect them. When we believe something about Him and his rules, He wants us to be true to those beliefs, even when they are incomplete. Again, this has modern day application, as long as we are careful not to apply it to those commandments like fornication, which are clearly forbidden. Rom 14:15. There is a tendency within the church to think that all Saints should believe the same thing and follow the same rules. However, Paul believes that the church should include members that sometimes share different beliefs. He admonishes us to be sensitive to each others beliefs. Using the example of meat, Paul says that it is unwise to eat meat in front of those who would be offended by it. Once I was in the home of my bishop, who had some rated R movies on his shelf. Although I myself was not offended by his library, I know others who would have been. There is a tendency towards self-righteousness on both sides. For example, some members seem to believe that it is impossible to be a good Mormon and a Democrat at the same time. I know of some Democrats who are "self-righteously" eager to share enlighten these "self-righteous" Republican saints. Paul admonishes us to be careful. Christ died for all, and has accepted all who have come unto Him, regardless of their individual beliefs. Shall we try put a wedge between them and Christ, by distracting our brethren by being too eager to enlighten them with our particular beliefs, which they may find offensive? The caveat is that sometimes Paul himself did take stands on issues like these. He seems to contradict his own advice in Galatians 2:11-14. He relates a confrontation he had with Peter over eating with Gentiles. Peter was eating with Gentiles, (forbidden by the Jewish law) and when he saw Christian Jews enter the room, he sheepishly withdrew from the Gentiles, so as to avoid being seen with them. Paul got angry with Peter and reproached him for his actions. In this example however, Peter was avoiding being seen with Gentiles. This was stronger than simply not eating meat, and Peter's actions condoned Christian Jewish prejudice against Christian Gentiles. For those of us who sometimes feel like Paul, that we need to stand up against "close-mindedness" or "prejudice" within the church, we should be very careful. We risk "destroying" the faith of others by doing so. Unless the actions and beliefs of others are truly harming the church, we should not go about removing motes from others eyes, when we surely have a beam in our own. Rom 14:22. When dealing with certain controversial rules or practices within the church, it is sometimes easy to doubt ourselves. There are a multitude of arguments on both sides that can cloud our understanding and cause us to be indecisive. We should remember that God doesn't necessarily care what we choose to believe on a particular controversial issue, as long as we believe it with faith and confidence, following our belief with exactness. "Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth." Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 12:19-20a. Verse 19 and the beginning of verse 20 seem to fit in well with Jesus's command to love our enemies (Matt 5:44). But how are we to understand the end of verse 20? At face value the end of verse 20 suggests that the motivation for doing good to our enemies, as Paul suggests, is not love, but an attempt to harm them. Under that reading this verse does not seem to fit in with Jesus's command to love our enemies. How can we reconcile this? (See also Prov 25:21-22.) Rom 13:1-5. Paul seems to be saying that governments have been ordained of God and exist to promote good. How does this apply in the case of a tyrannical government? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 9-11                      Next page: Chapters 15b-16

Rom 12:11-15

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 11-15a / Verses 12:1-15:13 Previous page: Chapters 9-11                      Next page: Chapters 15b-16 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 12:2: Transformed. The Greek word translated as "transformed" is metamorphoo (a cousin of the English word "metamorphosis"), which means to change to another form. The word is rare in the New Testament. Paul's use of the word in verse 2 may suggest a transformation greater than we can imagine. It is used only three other times in the New Testament: in Matthew 17:2 and Mark 9:2 to discuss Jesus' change at the Transfiguration, and in 2 Corinthians 3:18 to explain our transformation from glory to glory in the image of God. Rom 12:3: According as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Other translations say it this way, "in accordance with the amount of faith which God has alloted each one of us." Here we have evidence that God is responsible for the amount of faith we have in this life. Similar "predestination" issues were covered in Chapter 9. Understanding God's role in our individual gifts helps us be realistic about them. When we feel responsible for the amount of faith we have, or don't have, we may very well resort to pride, or despair. Pride, if we see ourselves as stronger and more disciplined than those with weaker faith, or despair, if we find it seems impossible achieve the kind of faith we see in some of our fellow saints. Paul reminds us that God has given us our place in this world, along with all of our gifts and weaknesses. For some of us, that means humbling ourselves and accepting our imperfections with honesty. For others, it means accepting that our gifts are not ours, but God's. For others, it means acknowledging that we do have gifts and strengths, and refusing to wallow in insecurity and self-deprecation. Rom 12:5: Becoming like Christ. "Becoming like Christ" is one of the great goals of every Saint. However, here on earth, that goal seems hopelessly lofty. Paul gives us a way to achieve that goal. Individually, we cannot become like Christ, but collectively, we become the "body of Christ." Every member has a different gift and mission, and working together, we become like Christ. The idea of the collective is very important in Christianity, either as a family, or as a church. We cannot be saved alone. If we are saved, we must be saved together, in families and congregations. Our individual lack is perfectly compatible within the Body of Christ, because others will have the strengths that we lack. We too will be able to pick up the slack when we have certain gifts that others lack. Rom 12:9. The Greek word translated as "without dissimulation" (anupokritos) in verse 9 means "unfeigned," "sincere" or "without hypocrisy." Rom 12:9: Cleave. The literal meaning of the Greek word translated as "cleave" (kollao) in verse 9 means "glue" or "fasten together." The Greek word translated as "abhor" (apostugeo) finds its only use in the New Testament in this verse. The word comes from root words that mean "to hate" and "to separate." In Greek, then, the contrast between "abhor" and "cleave" is even stronger, or at least more explicit, than it is in English: We are to hate evil and separate ourselves from it while we glue ourselves to what is good. 12:10: Brotherly love. The Greek word translated as "brotherly love" in verse 10 is philadelphia, which refers to the love that brothers and sisters show toward each other. It is related to the Greek word, philostorgos, which is translated here as "kindly affectioned." This is the only use of philostorgos is the New Testament; the word is usually used to refer to the love that parents and children show toward each other. Paul's use of these words suggests that we are to love and care for each other as members of the same family. His use of philostorgos and philadelphia in the same sentence provides a literary parallelism that is lost in translation. Rom 12:16. This discussion begins with verse 14. It is a series of admonitions or commandments about how we should relate to our brothers and sisters, first, and then about how to relate to others. Rom 12:16: Condescend. The Greek word sunapago translated as "condescend" does not mean to be condescending as we would use the word today. It means basically to associate with the lowly. Rom 12:17. The first clause repeats something already taught in Judaism, as we see in several proverbs (e.g., Proverbs 17:13, Proverbs 20:22, and Proverbs 24:29). In the second clause, Paul gives a rule of thumb for deciding what to do: “Take into consideration what everyone thinks is noble [literally ‘beautiful’].” The Hermeneia commentary on Romans (pages 772-73) suggests that it may also depend on Proverbs; it may be an adaptation of Proverbs 3:4. Rom 12:18. The double qualification that begins this verse—”if possible”; “insofar as it depends on you”—suggests that Paul knows how difficult it can be to live at peace with all. This seems to have two directions. The first has to do with me: I may be weak, but I should do what I can to live in peace. The second has to do with others: peace with others doesn’t depend wholly on me, so I can live in peace with them only insofar as it does depend on me. So the verse says that I should try as hard as I can to live in peace with others, recognizing that peace doesn’t completely depend on me. As the Hermeneia commentary on Romans notes, Paul may be alluding to Psalms 34:14 and Mark 9:50 (”Have peace with one another”). Rom 12:19. It is significant that Paul begins this verse by addressing his audience directly as “beloved.” It is a phrase he uses several times in Romans, especially in chapter 16 (verses 5, 8, 9, and 12). He also used it in the beginning of his letter (Romans 1:7). Paul is speaking to his audience, many of whom he knows personally, in personal terms rather than preaching to a general audience, so he uses an appropriate term of address. The King James translation makes clear we are forbidden to avenge ourselves. However, the real question comes in figuring out what Paul means when he says “leave room for the wrath.” If I can’t seek vengeance, then the wrath for which I am leaving room cannot be my wrath. It must be the wrath of God. If we take vengeance, then our wrath has taken the place of the wrath of God. We have substituted ourselves for God which is obviously impious. So, we must leave room for his wrath by not filling up that space with our own. As proof of his teaching, Paul quotes from a Greek version of Deuteronomy 32:35: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ saith the Lord.” Rom 12:20. Paul continues to cite scriptures to make his point, this time quoting Prov 25:21-22 (again quoting from the Greek version of the Old Testament, the Septuagint). The last half of verse 22 contains a promise of reward that Paul does not quote, “and the Lord shall reward thee.” Though the KJV begins this verse with “therefore,” “rather” or “but” is a better translation. The contrast is with the first part of verse 19: “Don’t look for revenge. Instead, feed your enemies . . . .” At first glance, Verse 20 seems like a contradiction of the overall message of the chapter--to love others, even our enemies, following the example of Christ. So what should we make of this verse? A majority of contemporary scholars believe that Prov 25:22 is an allusion to an Egyptian purification ritual in which a person carried a plate of hot coals on his head to signify repentance. In a similar vein, see Isaiah 6:5-7. There Isaiah laments his impurity and contrasts it with the holiness of God. Then a seraph touches a hot coal to Isaiah's lips, and Isaiah is purified. If we interpret the hot coals in this verse as similarly symbolic of purification (or repentance) then Paul may be telling us that by doing good to our enemies we are bringing about their repentance. Other explanations get to the same end by a different route. They take the hot coals as something painful at first which ultimately leads to repentance. In this case hot coals may be shame, pangs of guilt or embarrassment. In either case, most people understand this verse as teaching that if we do good to our enemies we will lead them to repentance. Nevertheless, another understanding is possible, we can read the hot coals as the Lord's vengeance in our behalf. Under this reading verse 19 and 20 say something like "don't take vengeance yourself. By being good to your enemy the Lord will take vengeance for you. And if instead of taking vengeance you are really nice to your enemy, your enemy will suffer terrible vengeance." But note that this reading changes the subject of who it is that heaps the coals. Verse 20 makes the audience the subject "...for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head" whereas the point of verse 19 is that we are not to seek vengeance. So knowing that they cannot seek vengeance themselves, it only makes sense for Paul to call the audience the "heapers" of the coals if we see them as getting vengeance by proxy, as the Lord takes vengeance. In other words, on this reading, Paul is saying, if you are good to your enemies you will get your vengeance. The problem with this reading is that, at least at first glance, it contradicts the overall message of the chapter--love your enemies following the example of Christ. However, the reading may be justified by the fact that we find essentially the same message in D&C 98:45. That verse, like this one, is embedded in a larger discussion of how we should treat our enemies with love. In following the second interpretation given above, the commandment is for us to love our neighbour and our enemy, and to forgive as many times as necessary. God forgives whom He will forgive. He, being omiscient and perfect in all things, is the One to whom final judgement is reserved. Everything that He does is in the interest of greater goodness for all His creations. This is part of why we leave vengeance to Him - because in Him, it's not really about vengeance, but love; for the wronged and those doing the wronging. If we act with compassion towards our enemies, and they in the future choose not to repent (not directly because of our actions, but with the combined effect of all their choices), the good that we have done them will convict them all the more, because they didn't respond to it with good of their own. It's not exactly the good we do them that turns to their condemnation, but the additional evidence, among all their acts, that their hearts are evil/hard/impure/rebellious. Also, although we should love our enemies, God's love and eternal law include punishment for evil acts not repented of. Love doesn't preclude judgement or recompense for wrong done. Acts and desires must have their consequence - but these are usually God's, not ours. So God is 'allowed', or rather required by eternal law and His own justice, to dispense punishments/consequences for evil. Us being loving towards our enemies doesn't contradict Him passing judgement on them or any other consequences they attract. Nor, of course, should it be our motivation. I think here Paul is stating a fact, not recommending a motivation. Rom 12:21. This is a good summary of Paul's teaching in verses 14-20. However, taking it as a summary of that teaching makes the last reading of verse 20 more difficult. Rom 13:1. According to Wesley's notes, Paul in this scripture issues a public apology for the Christian religion, who at the time were associated with the Jews, who were often rebellious to authority. Paul draws a clear distinction between Jewish and Christian attitudes towards civil authority. Christ disappointed the Jews by not liberating them from the civil law of the Romans. Instead, he taught that Jews should uphold the civil law, and render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's. Paul also suggests that civil authorities are ordained of God, and that they are ministers of God for good. Given that many of these powers that be were in fact evil dictators, Paul's statement seems greatly oversimplified. It could simply be that Paul didn't want the Christians to make any trouble. He also wanted it in writing that he strongly encouraged his Saints to obey the civil authorities. Perhaps by being so dogmatic in his support of civil law, he could stave off some of the impending civil persecution that would haunt the early Christian Church. The Christian mission was not to overthrow the government, as corrupt as it was. God would leave that to the barbarians. That was the message for the Christians in that time. However, applying the same advice to all situations is obviously problematic. It is reasonable to assume that Paul might indeed advocate civil disobedience under different circumstances. It is a true principle however that God ordains men, even imperfect or evil men to their positions of power. This fact is demonstrated in the selection of the early Jewish kings. The Prophet Samuel was commanded of God to select Saul to reign over the people as their first king. However, although he was ordained by a prophet of the Lord, Saul turned to wickedness. In the same way that God allows children to be born into the families of the wicked and abusive, God also allows people to be ruled by wicked dictators. Why would God would allow such things as the Holocaust to happen? These are some of the most difficult questions to answer, and they reach to core of the purpose of life on earth and the nature of human suffering. As much as we would like to blame Satan for all these terrible things, Paul reminds us in this scripture, and many others, that God is ultimately in charge, allowing, and even ordaining and orchestrating the collision of events that result in both tragedy and triumph on the civil stage. Satan has a major role of course, the one he played in the Garden of Eden. We LDS understand that God wanted Adam and Eve to eventually partake of the fruit, so in essence, he "used" Satan as the catalyst. Rom 14. In this chapter, Paul mentions a number of controversial "rules" that were practiced by some early Christians, including not eating meat, and observing certain celebrations or feast days. Some members esteemed these rules as essential commandments binding upon all Saints, and others believed that they were unnecessary. In this chapter, Paul tries to reconcile the two groups by validating both points of view, and then suggesting that both sides refrain from imposing their views on others, and judging them harshly. Paul's approach has a number of modern day applications. In our day there are a number of "rules" esteemed highly by some members, and not others. Examples in our day might include: drinking caffeinated sodas, watching rated R movies, certain political affiliations, believing in evolution, limiting the number of children you have, women working outside the home, performing only hymns from the hymn book in sacrament meeting, watching TV on Sunday, paying tithes on gifts, only fasting for a full and complete 24 hours, etc. While not all of these are perfectly compatible with Paul's particular issues, it may be helpful to some to read this chapter with some of these modern day "rules" in mind. While many in the church have passionate opinions and evidences for why certain of these "rules" are in fact essential commandments, others may claim equally passionately that these are not essential rules, citing anecdotes from the lives of General Authorities, or other rationalizations to justify their point of view. We can apply Paul's approach to these "rules" as long as we are careful not to include commandments that have firm, consistent doctrinal basis, such as abstaining from fornication. We can be certain from these scriptures and others, that Paul was more of a "spirit of the law" person than a "letter of the law" person. Those who follow the "letter of the law" Paul characterizes as "weak." Why does he call them weak? Paul believed that the Law of Moses was a taskmaster to bring us to Christ, a lesser law. The higher law is to have the law of Christ written not in tablets of stone but in the fleshy tablets of the heart. Those who still observe the law in it's more minor "letters," like not eating meat, are weaker in their faith. At the same time, those who are weaker are not condemned by Paul. He admonishes them in verse 5, "let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Many of us need the structure of rules and laws, even for minor things, in order to keep us focused on God, and perfect obedience to Him. For those who don't eat meat because they believe it to be an important law, God accepts their sacrifice of faith and obedience to Him. Were they to break the law, they would be under condemnation, for to them, it is wrong, and God holds us responsible for the laws that we believe and accept. Rom 14:14. Here we have evidence of the variability of certain "religious rules and practices." It is true that rules and practices sometimes change from culture to culture, dispensation to dispensation, and person to person. Sometimes these rules have a cultural origin rather than a Biblical or prophetic one. Sometimes these rules come from individual personal revelation for us. And sometimes they come from certain interpretations of the law. Paul says here that God doesn't always care what the rules are. What God cares about, is that each of us is true to what we personally believe. He that "esteemeth anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean." Our own beliefs may sometimes be variable, incomplete, or imperfect, but God does respect them. When we believe something about Him and his rules, He wants us to be true to those beliefs, even when they are incomplete. Again, this has modern day application, as long as we are careful not to apply it to those commandments like fornication, which are clearly forbidden. Rom 14:15. There is a tendency within the church to think that all Saints should believe the same thing and follow the same rules. However, Paul believes that the church should include members that sometimes share different beliefs. He admonishes us to be sensitive to each others beliefs. Using the example of meat, Paul says that it is unwise to eat meat in front of those who would be offended by it. Once I was in the home of my bishop, who had some rated R movies on his shelf. Although I myself was not offended by his library, I know others who would have been. There is a tendency towards self-righteousness on both sides. For example, some members seem to believe that it is impossible to be a good Mormon and a Democrat at the same time. I know of some Democrats who are "self-righteously" eager to share enlighten these "self-righteous" Republican saints. Paul admonishes us to be careful. Christ died for all, and has accepted all who have come unto Him, regardless of their individual beliefs. Shall we try put a wedge between them and Christ, by distracting our brethren by being too eager to enlighten them with our particular beliefs, which they may find offensive? The caveat is that sometimes Paul himself did take stands on issues like these. He seems to contradict his own advice in Galatians 2:11-14. He relates a confrontation he had with Peter over eating with Gentiles. Peter was eating with Gentiles, (forbidden by the Jewish law) and when he saw Christian Jews enter the room, he sheepishly withdrew from the Gentiles, so as to avoid being seen with them. Paul got angry with Peter and reproached him for his actions. In this example however, Peter was avoiding being seen with Gentiles. This was stronger than simply not eating meat, and Peter's actions condoned Christian Jewish prejudice against Christian Gentiles. For those of us who sometimes feel like Paul, that we need to stand up against "close-mindedness" or "prejudice" within the church, we should be very careful. We risk "destroying" the faith of others by doing so. Unless the actions and beliefs of others are truly harming the church, we should not go about removing motes from others eyes, when we surely have a beam in our own. Rom 14:22. When dealing with certain controversial rules or practices within the church, it is sometimes easy to doubt ourselves. There are a multitude of arguments on both sides that can cloud our understanding and cause us to be indecisive. We should remember that God doesn't necessarily care what we choose to believe on a particular controversial issue, as long as we believe it with faith and confidence, following our belief with exactness. "Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth." Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 12:19-20a. Verse 19 and the beginning of verse 20 seem to fit in well with Jesus's command to love our enemies (Matt 5:44). But how are we to understand the end of verse 20? At face value the end of verse 20 suggests that the motivation for doing good to our enemies, as Paul suggests, is not love, but an attempt to harm them. Under that reading this verse does not seem to fit in with Jesus's command to love our enemies. How can we reconcile this? (See also Prov 25:21-22.) Rom 13:1-5. Paul seems to be saying that governments have been ordained of God and exist to promote good. How does this apply in the case of a tyrannical government? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 9-11                      Next page: Chapters 15b-16

Rom 12:16-21

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 11-15a / Verses 12:1-15:13 Previous page: Chapters 9-11                      Next page: Chapters 15b-16 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 12:2: Transformed. The Greek word translated as "transformed" is metamorphoo (a cousin of the English word "metamorphosis"), which means to change to another form. The word is rare in the New Testament. Paul's use of the word in verse 2 may suggest a transformation greater than we can imagine. It is used only three other times in the New Testament: in Matthew 17:2 and Mark 9:2 to discuss Jesus' change at the Transfiguration, and in 2 Corinthians 3:18 to explain our transformation from glory to glory in the image of God. Rom 12:3: According as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Other translations say it this way, "in accordance with the amount of faith which God has alloted each one of us." Here we have evidence that God is responsible for the amount of faith we have in this life. Similar "predestination" issues were covered in Chapter 9. Understanding God's role in our individual gifts helps us be realistic about them. When we feel responsible for the amount of faith we have, or don't have, we may very well resort to pride, or despair. Pride, if we see ourselves as stronger and more disciplined than those with weaker faith, or despair, if we find it seems impossible achieve the kind of faith we see in some of our fellow saints. Paul reminds us that God has given us our place in this world, along with all of our gifts and weaknesses. For some of us, that means humbling ourselves and accepting our imperfections with honesty. For others, it means accepting that our gifts are not ours, but God's. For others, it means acknowledging that we do have gifts and strengths, and refusing to wallow in insecurity and self-deprecation. Rom 12:5: Becoming like Christ. "Becoming like Christ" is one of the great goals of every Saint. However, here on earth, that goal seems hopelessly lofty. Paul gives us a way to achieve that goal. Individually, we cannot become like Christ, but collectively, we become the "body of Christ." Every member has a different gift and mission, and working together, we become like Christ. The idea of the collective is very important in Christianity, either as a family, or as a church. We cannot be saved alone. If we are saved, we must be saved together, in families and congregations. Our individual lack is perfectly compatible within the Body of Christ, because others will have the strengths that we lack. We too will be able to pick up the slack when we have certain gifts that others lack. Rom 12:9. The Greek word translated as "without dissimulation" (anupokritos) in verse 9 means "unfeigned," "sincere" or "without hypocrisy." Rom 12:9: Cleave. The literal meaning of the Greek word translated as "cleave" (kollao) in verse 9 means "glue" or "fasten together." The Greek word translated as "abhor" (apostugeo) finds its only use in the New Testament in this verse. The word comes from root words that mean "to hate" and "to separate." In Greek, then, the contrast between "abhor" and "cleave" is even stronger, or at least more explicit, than it is in English: We are to hate evil and separate ourselves from it while we glue ourselves to what is good. 12:10: Brotherly love. The Greek word translated as "brotherly love" in verse 10 is philadelphia, which refers to the love that brothers and sisters show toward each other. It is related to the Greek word, philostorgos, which is translated here as "kindly affectioned." This is the only use of philostorgos is the New Testament; the word is usually used to refer to the love that parents and children show toward each other. Paul's use of these words suggests that we are to love and care for each other as members of the same family. His use of philostorgos and philadelphia in the same sentence provides a literary parallelism that is lost in translation. Rom 12:16. This discussion begins with verse 14. It is a series of admonitions or commandments about how we should relate to our brothers and sisters, first, and then about how to relate to others. Rom 12:16: Condescend. The Greek word sunapago translated as "condescend" does not mean to be condescending as we would use the word today. It means basically to associate with the lowly. Rom 12:17. The first clause repeats something already taught in Judaism, as we see in several proverbs (e.g., Proverbs 17:13, Proverbs 20:22, and Proverbs 24:29). In the second clause, Paul gives a rule of thumb for deciding what to do: “Take into consideration what everyone thinks is noble [literally ‘beautiful’].” The Hermeneia commentary on Romans (pages 772-73) suggests that it may also depend on Proverbs; it may be an adaptation of Proverbs 3:4. Rom 12:18. The double qualification that begins this verse—”if possible”; “insofar as it depends on you”—suggests that Paul knows how difficult it can be to live at peace with all. This seems to have two directions. The first has to do with me: I may be weak, but I should do what I can to live in peace. The second has to do with others: peace with others doesn’t depend wholly on me, so I can live in peace with them only insofar as it does depend on me. So the verse says that I should try as hard as I can to live in peace with others, recognizing that peace doesn’t completely depend on me. As the Hermeneia commentary on Romans notes, Paul may be alluding to Psalms 34:14 and Mark 9:50 (”Have peace with one another”). Rom 12:19. It is significant that Paul begins this verse by addressing his audience directly as “beloved.” It is a phrase he uses several times in Romans, especially in chapter 16 (verses 5, 8, 9, and 12). He also used it in the beginning of his letter (Romans 1:7). Paul is speaking to his audience, many of whom he knows personally, in personal terms rather than preaching to a general audience, so he uses an appropriate term of address. The King James translation makes clear we are forbidden to avenge ourselves. However, the real question comes in figuring out what Paul means when he says “leave room for the wrath.” If I can’t seek vengeance, then the wrath for which I am leaving room cannot be my wrath. It must be the wrath of God. If we take vengeance, then our wrath has taken the place of the wrath of God. We have substituted ourselves for God which is obviously impious. So, we must leave room for his wrath by not filling up that space with our own. As proof of his teaching, Paul quotes from a Greek version of Deuteronomy 32:35: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ saith the Lord.” Rom 12:20. Paul continues to cite scriptures to make his point, this time quoting Prov 25:21-22 (again quoting from the Greek version of the Old Testament, the Septuagint). The last half of verse 22 contains a promise of reward that Paul does not quote, “and the Lord shall reward thee.” Though the KJV begins this verse with “therefore,” “rather” or “but” is a better translation. The contrast is with the first part of verse 19: “Don’t look for revenge. Instead, feed your enemies . . . .” At first glance, Verse 20 seems like a contradiction of the overall message of the chapter--to love others, even our enemies, following the example of Christ. So what should we make of this verse? A majority of contemporary scholars believe that Prov 25:22 is an allusion to an Egyptian purification ritual in which a person carried a plate of hot coals on his head to signify repentance. In a similar vein, see Isaiah 6:5-7. There Isaiah laments his impurity and contrasts it with the holiness of God. Then a seraph touches a hot coal to Isaiah's lips, and Isaiah is purified. If we interpret the hot coals in this verse as similarly symbolic of purification (or repentance) then Paul may be telling us that by doing good to our enemies we are bringing about their repentance. Other explanations get to the same end by a different route. They take the hot coals as something painful at first which ultimately leads to repentance. In this case hot coals may be shame, pangs of guilt or embarrassment. In either case, most people understand this verse as teaching that if we do good to our enemies we will lead them to repentance. Nevertheless, another understanding is possible, we can read the hot coals as the Lord's vengeance in our behalf. Under this reading verse 19 and 20 say something like "don't take vengeance yourself. By being good to your enemy the Lord will take vengeance for you. And if instead of taking vengeance you are really nice to your enemy, your enemy will suffer terrible vengeance." But note that this reading changes the subject of who it is that heaps the coals. Verse 20 makes the audience the subject "...for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head" whereas the point of verse 19 is that we are not to seek vengeance. So knowing that they cannot seek vengeance themselves, it only makes sense for Paul to call the audience the "heapers" of the coals if we see them as getting vengeance by proxy, as the Lord takes vengeance. In other words, on this reading, Paul is saying, if you are good to your enemies you will get your vengeance. The problem with this reading is that, at least at first glance, it contradicts the overall message of the chapter--love your enemies following the example of Christ. However, the reading may be justified by the fact that we find essentially the same message in D&C 98:45. That verse, like this one, is embedded in a larger discussion of how we should treat our enemies with love. In following the second interpretation given above, the commandment is for us to love our neighbour and our enemy, and to forgive as many times as necessary. God forgives whom He will forgive. He, being omiscient and perfect in all things, is the One to whom final judgement is reserved. Everything that He does is in the interest of greater goodness for all His creations. This is part of why we leave vengeance to Him - because in Him, it's not really about vengeance, but love; for the wronged and those doing the wronging. If we act with compassion towards our enemies, and they in the future choose not to repent (not directly because of our actions, but with the combined effect of all their choices), the good that we have done them will convict them all the more, because they didn't respond to it with good of their own. It's not exactly the good we do them that turns to their condemnation, but the additional evidence, among all their acts, that their hearts are evil/hard/impure/rebellious. Also, although we should love our enemies, God's love and eternal law include punishment for evil acts not repented of. Love doesn't preclude judgement or recompense for wrong done. Acts and desires must have their consequence - but these are usually God's, not ours. So God is 'allowed', or rather required by eternal law and His own justice, to dispense punishments/consequences for evil. Us being loving towards our enemies doesn't contradict Him passing judgement on them or any other consequences they attract. Nor, of course, should it be our motivation. I think here Paul is stating a fact, not recommending a motivation. Rom 12:21. This is a good summary of Paul's teaching in verses 14-20. However, taking it as a summary of that teaching makes the last reading of verse 20 more difficult. Rom 13:1. According to Wesley's notes, Paul in this scripture issues a public apology for the Christian religion, who at the time were associated with the Jews, who were often rebellious to authority. Paul draws a clear distinction between Jewish and Christian attitudes towards civil authority. Christ disappointed the Jews by not liberating them from the civil law of the Romans. Instead, he taught that Jews should uphold the civil law, and render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's. Paul also suggests that civil authorities are ordained of God, and that they are ministers of God for good. Given that many of these powers that be were in fact evil dictators, Paul's statement seems greatly oversimplified. It could simply be that Paul didn't want the Christians to make any trouble. He also wanted it in writing that he strongly encouraged his Saints to obey the civil authorities. Perhaps by being so dogmatic in his support of civil law, he could stave off some of the impending civil persecution that would haunt the early Christian Church. The Christian mission was not to overthrow the government, as corrupt as it was. God would leave that to the barbarians. That was the message for the Christians in that time. However, applying the same advice to all situations is obviously problematic. It is reasonable to assume that Paul might indeed advocate civil disobedience under different circumstances. It is a true principle however that God ordains men, even imperfect or evil men to their positions of power. This fact is demonstrated in the selection of the early Jewish kings. The Prophet Samuel was commanded of God to select Saul to reign over the people as their first king. However, although he was ordained by a prophet of the Lord, Saul turned to wickedness. In the same way that God allows children to be born into the families of the wicked and abusive, God also allows people to be ruled by wicked dictators. Why would God would allow such things as the Holocaust to happen? These are some of the most difficult questions to answer, and they reach to core of the purpose of life on earth and the nature of human suffering. As much as we would like to blame Satan for all these terrible things, Paul reminds us in this scripture, and many others, that God is ultimately in charge, allowing, and even ordaining and orchestrating the collision of events that result in both tragedy and triumph on the civil stage. Satan has a major role of course, the one he played in the Garden of Eden. We LDS understand that God wanted Adam and Eve to eventually partake of the fruit, so in essence, he "used" Satan as the catalyst. Rom 14. In this chapter, Paul mentions a number of controversial "rules" that were practiced by some early Christians, including not eating meat, and observing certain celebrations or feast days. Some members esteemed these rules as essential commandments binding upon all Saints, and others believed that they were unnecessary. In this chapter, Paul tries to reconcile the two groups by validating both points of view, and then suggesting that both sides refrain from imposing their views on others, and judging them harshly. Paul's approach has a number of modern day applications. In our day there are a number of "rules" esteemed highly by some members, and not others. Examples in our day might include: drinking caffeinated sodas, watching rated R movies, certain political affiliations, believing in evolution, limiting the number of children you have, women working outside the home, performing only hymns from the hymn book in sacrament meeting, watching TV on Sunday, paying tithes on gifts, only fasting for a full and complete 24 hours, etc. While not all of these are perfectly compatible with Paul's particular issues, it may be helpful to some to read this chapter with some of these modern day "rules" in mind. While many in the church have passionate opinions and evidences for why certain of these "rules" are in fact essential commandments, others may claim equally passionately that these are not essential rules, citing anecdotes from the lives of General Authorities, or other rationalizations to justify their point of view. We can apply Paul's approach to these "rules" as long as we are careful not to include commandments that have firm, consistent doctrinal basis, such as abstaining from fornication. We can be certain from these scriptures and others, that Paul was more of a "spirit of the law" person than a "letter of the law" person. Those who follow the "letter of the law" Paul characterizes as "weak." Why does he call them weak? Paul believed that the Law of Moses was a taskmaster to bring us to Christ, a lesser law. The higher law is to have the law of Christ written not in tablets of stone but in the fleshy tablets of the heart. Those who still observe the law in it's more minor "letters," like not eating meat, are weaker in their faith. At the same time, those who are weaker are not condemned by Paul. He admonishes them in verse 5, "let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Many of us need the structure of rules and laws, even for minor things, in order to keep us focused on God, and perfect obedience to Him. For those who don't eat meat because they believe it to be an important law, God accepts their sacrifice of faith and obedience to Him. Were they to break the law, they would be under condemnation, for to them, it is wrong, and God holds us responsible for the laws that we believe and accept. Rom 14:14. Here we have evidence of the variability of certain "religious rules and practices." It is true that rules and practices sometimes change from culture to culture, dispensation to dispensation, and person to person. Sometimes these rules have a cultural origin rather than a Biblical or prophetic one. Sometimes these rules come from individual personal revelation for us. And sometimes they come from certain interpretations of the law. Paul says here that God doesn't always care what the rules are. What God cares about, is that each of us is true to what we personally believe. He that "esteemeth anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean." Our own beliefs may sometimes be variable, incomplete, or imperfect, but God does respect them. When we believe something about Him and his rules, He wants us to be true to those beliefs, even when they are incomplete. Again, this has modern day application, as long as we are careful not to apply it to those commandments like fornication, which are clearly forbidden. Rom 14:15. There is a tendency within the church to think that all Saints should believe the same thing and follow the same rules. However, Paul believes that the church should include members that sometimes share different beliefs. He admonishes us to be sensitive to each others beliefs. Using the example of meat, Paul says that it is unwise to eat meat in front of those who would be offended by it. Once I was in the home of my bishop, who had some rated R movies on his shelf. Although I myself was not offended by his library, I know others who would have been. There is a tendency towards self-righteousness on both sides. For example, some members seem to believe that it is impossible to be a good Mormon and a Democrat at the same time. I know of some Democrats who are "self-righteously" eager to share enlighten these "self-righteous" Republican saints. Paul admonishes us to be careful. Christ died for all, and has accepted all who have come unto Him, regardless of their individual beliefs. Shall we try put a wedge between them and Christ, by distracting our brethren by being too eager to enlighten them with our particular beliefs, which they may find offensive? The caveat is that sometimes Paul himself did take stands on issues like these. He seems to contradict his own advice in Galatians 2:11-14. He relates a confrontation he had with Peter over eating with Gentiles. Peter was eating with Gentiles, (forbidden by the Jewish law) and when he saw Christian Jews enter the room, he sheepishly withdrew from the Gentiles, so as to avoid being seen with them. Paul got angry with Peter and reproached him for his actions. In this example however, Peter was avoiding being seen with Gentiles. This was stronger than simply not eating meat, and Peter's actions condoned Christian Jewish prejudice against Christian Gentiles. For those of us who sometimes feel like Paul, that we need to stand up against "close-mindedness" or "prejudice" within the church, we should be very careful. We risk "destroying" the faith of others by doing so. Unless the actions and beliefs of others are truly harming the church, we should not go about removing motes from others eyes, when we surely have a beam in our own. Rom 14:22. When dealing with certain controversial rules or practices within the church, it is sometimes easy to doubt ourselves. There are a multitude of arguments on both sides that can cloud our understanding and cause us to be indecisive. We should remember that God doesn't necessarily care what we choose to believe on a particular controversial issue, as long as we believe it with faith and confidence, following our belief with exactness. "Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth." Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 12:19-20a. Verse 19 and the beginning of verse 20 seem to fit in well with Jesus's command to love our enemies (Matt 5:44). But how are we to understand the end of verse 20? At face value the end of verse 20 suggests that the motivation for doing good to our enemies, as Paul suggests, is not love, but an attempt to harm them. Under that reading this verse does not seem to fit in with Jesus's command to love our enemies. How can we reconcile this? (See also Prov 25:21-22.) Rom 13:1-5. Paul seems to be saying that governments have been ordained of God and exist to promote good. How does this apply in the case of a tyrannical government? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 9-11                      Next page: Chapters 15b-16

Rom 13:1-5

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 11-15a / Verses 12:1-15:13 Previous page: Chapters 9-11                      Next page: Chapters 15b-16 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 12:2: Transformed. The Greek word translated as "transformed" is metamorphoo (a cousin of the English word "metamorphosis"), which means to change to another form. The word is rare in the New Testament. Paul's use of the word in verse 2 may suggest a transformation greater than we can imagine. It is used only three other times in the New Testament: in Matthew 17:2 and Mark 9:2 to discuss Jesus' change at the Transfiguration, and in 2 Corinthians 3:18 to explain our transformation from glory to glory in the image of God. Rom 12:3: According as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Other translations say it this way, "in accordance with the amount of faith which God has alloted each one of us." Here we have evidence that God is responsible for the amount of faith we have in this life. Similar "predestination" issues were covered in Chapter 9. Understanding God's role in our individual gifts helps us be realistic about them. When we feel responsible for the amount of faith we have, or don't have, we may very well resort to pride, or despair. Pride, if we see ourselves as stronger and more disciplined than those with weaker faith, or despair, if we find it seems impossible achieve the kind of faith we see in some of our fellow saints. Paul reminds us that God has given us our place in this world, along with all of our gifts and weaknesses. For some of us, that means humbling ourselves and accepting our imperfections with honesty. For others, it means accepting that our gifts are not ours, but God's. For others, it means acknowledging that we do have gifts and strengths, and refusing to wallow in insecurity and self-deprecation. Rom 12:5: Becoming like Christ. "Becoming like Christ" is one of the great goals of every Saint. However, here on earth, that goal seems hopelessly lofty. Paul gives us a way to achieve that goal. Individually, we cannot become like Christ, but collectively, we become the "body of Christ." Every member has a different gift and mission, and working together, we become like Christ. The idea of the collective is very important in Christianity, either as a family, or as a church. We cannot be saved alone. If we are saved, we must be saved together, in families and congregations. Our individual lack is perfectly compatible within the Body of Christ, because others will have the strengths that we lack. We too will be able to pick up the slack when we have certain gifts that others lack. Rom 12:9. The Greek word translated as "without dissimulation" (anupokritos) in verse 9 means "unfeigned," "sincere" or "without hypocrisy." Rom 12:9: Cleave. The literal meaning of the Greek word translated as "cleave" (kollao) in verse 9 means "glue" or "fasten together." The Greek word translated as "abhor" (apostugeo) finds its only use in the New Testament in this verse. The word comes from root words that mean "to hate" and "to separate." In Greek, then, the contrast between "abhor" and "cleave" is even stronger, or at least more explicit, than it is in English: We are to hate evil and separate ourselves from it while we glue ourselves to what is good. 12:10: Brotherly love. The Greek word translated as "brotherly love" in verse 10 is philadelphia, which refers to the love that brothers and sisters show toward each other. It is related to the Greek word, philostorgos, which is translated here as "kindly affectioned." This is the only use of philostorgos is the New Testament; the word is usually used to refer to the love that parents and children show toward each other. Paul's use of these words suggests that we are to love and care for each other as members of the same family. His use of philostorgos and philadelphia in the same sentence provides a literary parallelism that is lost in translation. Rom 12:16. This discussion begins with verse 14. It is a series of admonitions or commandments about how we should relate to our brothers and sisters, first, and then about how to relate to others. Rom 12:16: Condescend. The Greek word sunapago translated as "condescend" does not mean to be condescending as we would use the word today. It means basically to associate with the lowly. Rom 12:17. The first clause repeats something already taught in Judaism, as we see in several proverbs (e.g., Proverbs 17:13, Proverbs 20:22, and Proverbs 24:29). In the second clause, Paul gives a rule of thumb for deciding what to do: “Take into consideration what everyone thinks is noble [literally ‘beautiful’].” The Hermeneia commentary on Romans (pages 772-73) suggests that it may also depend on Proverbs; it may be an adaptation of Proverbs 3:4. Rom 12:18. The double qualification that begins this verse—”if possible”; “insofar as it depends on you”—suggests that Paul knows how difficult it can be to live at peace with all. This seems to have two directions. The first has to do with me: I may be weak, but I should do what I can to live in peace. The second has to do with others: peace with others doesn’t depend wholly on me, so I can live in peace with them only insofar as it does depend on me. So the verse says that I should try as hard as I can to live in peace with others, recognizing that peace doesn’t completely depend on me. As the Hermeneia commentary on Romans notes, Paul may be alluding to Psalms 34:14 and Mark 9:50 (”Have peace with one another”). Rom 12:19. It is significant that Paul begins this verse by addressing his audience directly as “beloved.” It is a phrase he uses several times in Romans, especially in chapter 16 (verses 5, 8, 9, and 12). He also used it in the beginning of his letter (Romans 1:7). Paul is speaking to his audience, many of whom he knows personally, in personal terms rather than preaching to a general audience, so he uses an appropriate term of address. The King James translation makes clear we are forbidden to avenge ourselves. However, the real question comes in figuring out what Paul means when he says “leave room for the wrath.” If I can’t seek vengeance, then the wrath for which I am leaving room cannot be my wrath. It must be the wrath of God. If we take vengeance, then our wrath has taken the place of the wrath of God. We have substituted ourselves for God which is obviously impious. So, we must leave room for his wrath by not filling up that space with our own. As proof of his teaching, Paul quotes from a Greek version of Deuteronomy 32:35: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ saith the Lord.” Rom 12:20. Paul continues to cite scriptures to make his point, this time quoting Prov 25:21-22 (again quoting from the Greek version of the Old Testament, the Septuagint). The last half of verse 22 contains a promise of reward that Paul does not quote, “and the Lord shall reward thee.” Though the KJV begins this verse with “therefore,” “rather” or “but” is a better translation. The contrast is with the first part of verse 19: “Don’t look for revenge. Instead, feed your enemies . . . .” At first glance, Verse 20 seems like a contradiction of the overall message of the chapter--to love others, even our enemies, following the example of Christ. So what should we make of this verse? A majority of contemporary scholars believe that Prov 25:22 is an allusion to an Egyptian purification ritual in which a person carried a plate of hot coals on his head to signify repentance. In a similar vein, see Isaiah 6:5-7. There Isaiah laments his impurity and contrasts it with the holiness of God. Then a seraph touches a hot coal to Isaiah's lips, and Isaiah is purified. If we interpret the hot coals in this verse as similarly symbolic of purification (or repentance) then Paul may be telling us that by doing good to our enemies we are bringing about their repentance. Other explanations get to the same end by a different route. They take the hot coals as something painful at first which ultimately leads to repentance. In this case hot coals may be shame, pangs of guilt or embarrassment. In either case, most people understand this verse as teaching that if we do good to our enemies we will lead them to repentance. Nevertheless, another understanding is possible, we can read the hot coals as the Lord's vengeance in our behalf. Under this reading verse 19 and 20 say something like "don't take vengeance yourself. By being good to your enemy the Lord will take vengeance for you. And if instead of taking vengeance you are really nice to your enemy, your enemy will suffer terrible vengeance." But note that this reading changes the subject of who it is that heaps the coals. Verse 20 makes the audience the subject "...for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head" whereas the point of verse 19 is that we are not to seek vengeance. So knowing that they cannot seek vengeance themselves, it only makes sense for Paul to call the audience the "heapers" of the coals if we see them as getting vengeance by proxy, as the Lord takes vengeance. In other words, on this reading, Paul is saying, if you are good to your enemies you will get your vengeance. The problem with this reading is that, at least at first glance, it contradicts the overall message of the chapter--love your enemies following the example of Christ. However, the reading may be justified by the fact that we find essentially the same message in D&C 98:45. That verse, like this one, is embedded in a larger discussion of how we should treat our enemies with love. In following the second interpretation given above, the commandment is for us to love our neighbour and our enemy, and to forgive as many times as necessary. God forgives whom He will forgive. He, being omiscient and perfect in all things, is the One to whom final judgement is reserved. Everything that He does is in the interest of greater goodness for all His creations. This is part of why we leave vengeance to Him - because in Him, it's not really about vengeance, but love; for the wronged and those doing the wronging. If we act with compassion towards our enemies, and they in the future choose not to repent (not directly because of our actions, but with the combined effect of all their choices), the good that we have done them will convict them all the more, because they didn't respond to it with good of their own. It's not exactly the good we do them that turns to their condemnation, but the additional evidence, among all their acts, that their hearts are evil/hard/impure/rebellious. Also, although we should love our enemies, God's love and eternal law include punishment for evil acts not repented of. Love doesn't preclude judgement or recompense for wrong done. Acts and desires must have their consequence - but these are usually God's, not ours. So God is 'allowed', or rather required by eternal law and His own justice, to dispense punishments/consequences for evil. Us being loving towards our enemies doesn't contradict Him passing judgement on them or any other consequences they attract. Nor, of course, should it be our motivation. I think here Paul is stating a fact, not recommending a motivation. Rom 12:21. This is a good summary of Paul's teaching in verses 14-20. However, taking it as a summary of that teaching makes the last reading of verse 20 more difficult. Rom 13:1. According to Wesley's notes, Paul in this scripture issues a public apology for the Christian religion, who at the time were associated with the Jews, who were often rebellious to authority. Paul draws a clear distinction between Jewish and Christian attitudes towards civil authority. Christ disappointed the Jews by not liberating them from the civil law of the Romans. Instead, he taught that Jews should uphold the civil law, and render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's. Paul also suggests that civil authorities are ordained of God, and that they are ministers of God for good. Given that many of these powers that be were in fact evil dictators, Paul's statement seems greatly oversimplified. It could simply be that Paul didn't want the Christians to make any trouble. He also wanted it in writing that he strongly encouraged his Saints to obey the civil authorities. Perhaps by being so dogmatic in his support of civil law, he could stave off some of the impending civil persecution that would haunt the early Christian Church. The Christian mission was not to overthrow the government, as corrupt as it was. God would leave that to the barbarians. That was the message for the Christians in that time. However, applying the same advice to all situations is obviously problematic. It is reasonable to assume that Paul might indeed advocate civil disobedience under different circumstances. It is a true principle however that God ordains men, even imperfect or evil men to their positions of power. This fact is demonstrated in the selection of the early Jewish kings. The Prophet Samuel was commanded of God to select Saul to reign over the people as their first king. However, although he was ordained by a prophet of the Lord, Saul turned to wickedness. In the same way that God allows children to be born into the families of the wicked and abusive, God also allows people to be ruled by wicked dictators. Why would God would allow such things as the Holocaust to happen? These are some of the most difficult questions to answer, and they reach to core of the purpose of life on earth and the nature of human suffering. As much as we would like to blame Satan for all these terrible things, Paul reminds us in this scripture, and many others, that God is ultimately in charge, allowing, and even ordaining and orchestrating the collision of events that result in both tragedy and triumph on the civil stage. Satan has a major role of course, the one he played in the Garden of Eden. We LDS understand that God wanted Adam and Eve to eventually partake of the fruit, so in essence, he "used" Satan as the catalyst. Rom 14. In this chapter, Paul mentions a number of controversial "rules" that were practiced by some early Christians, including not eating meat, and observing certain celebrations or feast days. Some members esteemed these rules as essential commandments binding upon all Saints, and others believed that they were unnecessary. In this chapter, Paul tries to reconcile the two groups by validating both points of view, and then suggesting that both sides refrain from imposing their views on others, and judging them harshly. Paul's approach has a number of modern day applications. In our day there are a number of "rules" esteemed highly by some members, and not others. Examples in our day might include: drinking caffeinated sodas, watching rated R movies, certain political affiliations, believing in evolution, limiting the number of children you have, women working outside the home, performing only hymns from the hymn book in sacrament meeting, watching TV on Sunday, paying tithes on gifts, only fasting for a full and complete 24 hours, etc. While not all of these are perfectly compatible with Paul's particular issues, it may be helpful to some to read this chapter with some of these modern day "rules" in mind. While many in the church have passionate opinions and evidences for why certain of these "rules" are in fact essential commandments, others may claim equally passionately that these are not essential rules, citing anecdotes from the lives of General Authorities, or other rationalizations to justify their point of view. We can apply Paul's approach to these "rules" as long as we are careful not to include commandments that have firm, consistent doctrinal basis, such as abstaining from fornication. We can be certain from these scriptures and others, that Paul was more of a "spirit of the law" person than a "letter of the law" person. Those who follow the "letter of the law" Paul characterizes as "weak." Why does he call them weak? Paul believed that the Law of Moses was a taskmaster to bring us to Christ, a lesser law. The higher law is to have the law of Christ written not in tablets of stone but in the fleshy tablets of the heart. Those who still observe the law in it's more minor "letters," like not eating meat, are weaker in their faith. At the same time, those who are weaker are not condemned by Paul. He admonishes them in verse 5, "let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Many of us need the structure of rules and laws, even for minor things, in order to keep us focused on God, and perfect obedience to Him. For those who don't eat meat because they believe it to be an important law, God accepts their sacrifice of faith and obedience to Him. Were they to break the law, they would be under condemnation, for to them, it is wrong, and God holds us responsible for the laws that we believe and accept. Rom 14:14. Here we have evidence of the variability of certain "religious rules and practices." It is true that rules and practices sometimes change from culture to culture, dispensation to dispensation, and person to person. Sometimes these rules have a cultural origin rather than a Biblical or prophetic one. Sometimes these rules come from individual personal revelation for us. And sometimes they come from certain interpretations of the law. Paul says here that God doesn't always care what the rules are. What God cares about, is that each of us is true to what we personally believe. He that "esteemeth anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean." Our own beliefs may sometimes be variable, incomplete, or imperfect, but God does respect them. When we believe something about Him and his rules, He wants us to be true to those beliefs, even when they are incomplete. Again, this has modern day application, as long as we are careful not to apply it to those commandments like fornication, which are clearly forbidden. Rom 14:15. There is a tendency within the church to think that all Saints should believe the same thing and follow the same rules. However, Paul believes that the church should include members that sometimes share different beliefs. He admonishes us to be sensitive to each others beliefs. Using the example of meat, Paul says that it is unwise to eat meat in front of those who would be offended by it. Once I was in the home of my bishop, who had some rated R movies on his shelf. Although I myself was not offended by his library, I know others who would have been. There is a tendency towards self-righteousness on both sides. For example, some members seem to believe that it is impossible to be a good Mormon and a Democrat at the same time. I know of some Democrats who are "self-righteously" eager to share enlighten these "self-righteous" Republican saints. Paul admonishes us to be careful. Christ died for all, and has accepted all who have come unto Him, regardless of their individual beliefs. Shall we try put a wedge between them and Christ, by distracting our brethren by being too eager to enlighten them with our particular beliefs, which they may find offensive? The caveat is that sometimes Paul himself did take stands on issues like these. He seems to contradict his own advice in Galatians 2:11-14. He relates a confrontation he had with Peter over eating with Gentiles. Peter was eating with Gentiles, (forbidden by the Jewish law) and when he saw Christian Jews enter the room, he sheepishly withdrew from the Gentiles, so as to avoid being seen with them. Paul got angry with Peter and reproached him for his actions. In this example however, Peter was avoiding being seen with Gentiles. This was stronger than simply not eating meat, and Peter's actions condoned Christian Jewish prejudice against Christian Gentiles. For those of us who sometimes feel like Paul, that we need to stand up against "close-mindedness" or "prejudice" within the church, we should be very careful. We risk "destroying" the faith of others by doing so. Unless the actions and beliefs of others are truly harming the church, we should not go about removing motes from others eyes, when we surely have a beam in our own. Rom 14:22. When dealing with certain controversial rules or practices within the church, it is sometimes easy to doubt ourselves. There are a multitude of arguments on both sides that can cloud our understanding and cause us to be indecisive. We should remember that God doesn't necessarily care what we choose to believe on a particular controversial issue, as long as we believe it with faith and confidence, following our belief with exactness. "Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth." Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 12:19-20a. Verse 19 and the beginning of verse 20 seem to fit in well with Jesus's command to love our enemies (Matt 5:44). But how are we to understand the end of verse 20? At face value the end of verse 20 suggests that the motivation for doing good to our enemies, as Paul suggests, is not love, but an attempt to harm them. Under that reading this verse does not seem to fit in with Jesus's command to love our enemies. How can we reconcile this? (See also Prov 25:21-22.) Rom 13:1-5. Paul seems to be saying that governments have been ordained of God and exist to promote good. How does this apply in the case of a tyrannical government? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 9-11                      Next page: Chapters 15b-16

Rom 13:6-10

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 11-15a / Verses 12:1-15:13 Previous page: Chapters 9-11                      Next page: Chapters 15b-16 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 12:2: Transformed. The Greek word translated as "transformed" is metamorphoo (a cousin of the English word "metamorphosis"), which means to change to another form. The word is rare in the New Testament. Paul's use of the word in verse 2 may suggest a transformation greater than we can imagine. It is used only three other times in the New Testament: in Matthew 17:2 and Mark 9:2 to discuss Jesus' change at the Transfiguration, and in 2 Corinthians 3:18 to explain our transformation from glory to glory in the image of God. Rom 12:3: According as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Other translations say it this way, "in accordance with the amount of faith which God has alloted each one of us." Here we have evidence that God is responsible for the amount of faith we have in this life. Similar "predestination" issues were covered in Chapter 9. Understanding God's role in our individual gifts helps us be realistic about them. When we feel responsible for the amount of faith we have, or don't have, we may very well resort to pride, or despair. Pride, if we see ourselves as stronger and more disciplined than those with weaker faith, or despair, if we find it seems impossible achieve the kind of faith we see in some of our fellow saints. Paul reminds us that God has given us our place in this world, along with all of our gifts and weaknesses. For some of us, that means humbling ourselves and accepting our imperfections with honesty. For others, it means accepting that our gifts are not ours, but God's. For others, it means acknowledging that we do have gifts and strengths, and refusing to wallow in insecurity and self-deprecation. Rom 12:5: Becoming like Christ. "Becoming like Christ" is one of the great goals of every Saint. However, here on earth, that goal seems hopelessly lofty. Paul gives us a way to achieve that goal. Individually, we cannot become like Christ, but collectively, we become the "body of Christ." Every member has a different gift and mission, and working together, we become like Christ. The idea of the collective is very important in Christianity, either as a family, or as a church. We cannot be saved alone. If we are saved, we must be saved together, in families and congregations. Our individual lack is perfectly compatible within the Body of Christ, because others will have the strengths that we lack. We too will be able to pick up the slack when we have certain gifts that others lack. Rom 12:9. The Greek word translated as "without dissimulation" (anupokritos) in verse 9 means "unfeigned," "sincere" or "without hypocrisy." Rom 12:9: Cleave. The literal meaning of the Greek word translated as "cleave" (kollao) in verse 9 means "glue" or "fasten together." The Greek word translated as "abhor" (apostugeo) finds its only use in the New Testament in this verse. The word comes from root words that mean "to hate" and "to separate." In Greek, then, the contrast between "abhor" and "cleave" is even stronger, or at least more explicit, than it is in English: We are to hate evil and separate ourselves from it while we glue ourselves to what is good. 12:10: Brotherly love. The Greek word translated as "brotherly love" in verse 10 is philadelphia, which refers to the love that brothers and sisters show toward each other. It is related to the Greek word, philostorgos, which is translated here as "kindly affectioned." This is the only use of philostorgos is the New Testament; the word is usually used to refer to the love that parents and children show toward each other. Paul's use of these words suggests that we are to love and care for each other as members of the same family. His use of philostorgos and philadelphia in the same sentence provides a literary parallelism that is lost in translation. Rom 12:16. This discussion begins with verse 14. It is a series of admonitions or commandments about how we should relate to our brothers and sisters, first, and then about how to relate to others. Rom 12:16: Condescend. The Greek word sunapago translated as "condescend" does not mean to be condescending as we would use the word today. It means basically to associate with the lowly. Rom 12:17. The first clause repeats something already taught in Judaism, as we see in several proverbs (e.g., Proverbs 17:13, Proverbs 20:22, and Proverbs 24:29). In the second clause, Paul gives a rule of thumb for deciding what to do: “Take into consideration what everyone thinks is noble [literally ‘beautiful’].” The Hermeneia commentary on Romans (pages 772-73) suggests that it may also depend on Proverbs; it may be an adaptation of Proverbs 3:4. Rom 12:18. The double qualification that begins this verse—”if possible”; “insofar as it depends on you”—suggests that Paul knows how difficult it can be to live at peace with all. This seems to have two directions. The first has to do with me: I may be weak, but I should do what I can to live in peace. The second has to do with others: peace with others doesn’t depend wholly on me, so I can live in peace with them only insofar as it does depend on me. So the verse says that I should try as hard as I can to live in peace with others, recognizing that peace doesn’t completely depend on me. As the Hermeneia commentary on Romans notes, Paul may be alluding to Psalms 34:14 and Mark 9:50 (”Have peace with one another”). Rom 12:19. It is significant that Paul begins this verse by addressing his audience directly as “beloved.” It is a phrase he uses several times in Romans, especially in chapter 16 (verses 5, 8, 9, and 12). He also used it in the beginning of his letter (Romans 1:7). Paul is speaking to his audience, many of whom he knows personally, in personal terms rather than preaching to a general audience, so he uses an appropriate term of address. The King James translation makes clear we are forbidden to avenge ourselves. However, the real question comes in figuring out what Paul means when he says “leave room for the wrath.” If I can’t seek vengeance, then the wrath for which I am leaving room cannot be my wrath. It must be the wrath of God. If we take vengeance, then our wrath has taken the place of the wrath of God. We have substituted ourselves for God which is obviously impious. So, we must leave room for his wrath by not filling up that space with our own. As proof of his teaching, Paul quotes from a Greek version of Deuteronomy 32:35: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ saith the Lord.” Rom 12:20. Paul continues to cite scriptures to make his point, this time quoting Prov 25:21-22 (again quoting from the Greek version of the Old Testament, the Septuagint). The last half of verse 22 contains a promise of reward that Paul does not quote, “and the Lord shall reward thee.” Though the KJV begins this verse with “therefore,” “rather” or “but” is a better translation. The contrast is with the first part of verse 19: “Don’t look for revenge. Instead, feed your enemies . . . .” At first glance, Verse 20 seems like a contradiction of the overall message of the chapter--to love others, even our enemies, following the example of Christ. So what should we make of this verse? A majority of contemporary scholars believe that Prov 25:22 is an allusion to an Egyptian purification ritual in which a person carried a plate of hot coals on his head to signify repentance. In a similar vein, see Isaiah 6:5-7. There Isaiah laments his impurity and contrasts it with the holiness of God. Then a seraph touches a hot coal to Isaiah's lips, and Isaiah is purified. If we interpret the hot coals in this verse as similarly symbolic of purification (or repentance) then Paul may be telling us that by doing good to our enemies we are bringing about their repentance. Other explanations get to the same end by a different route. They take the hot coals as something painful at first which ultimately leads to repentance. In this case hot coals may be shame, pangs of guilt or embarrassment. In either case, most people understand this verse as teaching that if we do good to our enemies we will lead them to repentance. Nevertheless, another understanding is possible, we can read the hot coals as the Lord's vengeance in our behalf. Under this reading verse 19 and 20 say something like "don't take vengeance yourself. By being good to your enemy the Lord will take vengeance for you. And if instead of taking vengeance you are really nice to your enemy, your enemy will suffer terrible vengeance." But note that this reading changes the subject of who it is that heaps the coals. Verse 20 makes the audience the subject "...for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head" whereas the point of verse 19 is that we are not to seek vengeance. So knowing that they cannot seek vengeance themselves, it only makes sense for Paul to call the audience the "heapers" of the coals if we see them as getting vengeance by proxy, as the Lord takes vengeance. In other words, on this reading, Paul is saying, if you are good to your enemies you will get your vengeance. The problem with this reading is that, at least at first glance, it contradicts the overall message of the chapter--love your enemies following the example of Christ. However, the reading may be justified by the fact that we find essentially the same message in D&C 98:45. That verse, like this one, is embedded in a larger discussion of how we should treat our enemies with love. In following the second interpretation given above, the commandment is for us to love our neighbour and our enemy, and to forgive as many times as necessary. God forgives whom He will forgive. He, being omiscient and perfect in all things, is the One to whom final judgement is reserved. Everything that He does is in the interest of greater goodness for all His creations. This is part of why we leave vengeance to Him - because in Him, it's not really about vengeance, but love; for the wronged and those doing the wronging. If we act with compassion towards our enemies, and they in the future choose not to repent (not directly because of our actions, but with the combined effect of all their choices), the good that we have done them will convict them all the more, because they didn't respond to it with good of their own. It's not exactly the good we do them that turns to their condemnation, but the additional evidence, among all their acts, that their hearts are evil/hard/impure/rebellious. Also, although we should love our enemies, God's love and eternal law include punishment for evil acts not repented of. Love doesn't preclude judgement or recompense for wrong done. Acts and desires must have their consequence - but these are usually God's, not ours. So God is 'allowed', or rather required by eternal law and His own justice, to dispense punishments/consequences for evil. Us being loving towards our enemies doesn't contradict Him passing judgement on them or any other consequences they attract. Nor, of course, should it be our motivation. I think here Paul is stating a fact, not recommending a motivation. Rom 12:21. This is a good summary of Paul's teaching in verses 14-20. However, taking it as a summary of that teaching makes the last reading of verse 20 more difficult. Rom 13:1. According to Wesley's notes, Paul in this scripture issues a public apology for the Christian religion, who at the time were associated with the Jews, who were often rebellious to authority. Paul draws a clear distinction between Jewish and Christian attitudes towards civil authority. Christ disappointed the Jews by not liberating them from the civil law of the Romans. Instead, he taught that Jews should uphold the civil law, and render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's. Paul also suggests that civil authorities are ordained of God, and that they are ministers of God for good. Given that many of these powers that be were in fact evil dictators, Paul's statement seems greatly oversimplified. It could simply be that Paul didn't want the Christians to make any trouble. He also wanted it in writing that he strongly encouraged his Saints to obey the civil authorities. Perhaps by being so dogmatic in his support of civil law, he could stave off some of the impending civil persecution that would haunt the early Christian Church. The Christian mission was not to overthrow the government, as corrupt as it was. God would leave that to the barbarians. That was the message for the Christians in that time. However, applying the same advice to all situations is obviously problematic. It is reasonable to assume that Paul might indeed advocate civil disobedience under different circumstances. It is a true principle however that God ordains men, even imperfect or evil men to their positions of power. This fact is demonstrated in the selection of the early Jewish kings. The Prophet Samuel was commanded of God to select Saul to reign over the people as their first king. However, although he was ordained by a prophet of the Lord, Saul turned to wickedness. In the same way that God allows children to be born into the families of the wicked and abusive, God also allows people to be ruled by wicked dictators. Why would God would allow such things as the Holocaust to happen? These are some of the most difficult questions to answer, and they reach to core of the purpose of life on earth and the nature of human suffering. As much as we would like to blame Satan for all these terrible things, Paul reminds us in this scripture, and many others, that God is ultimately in charge, allowing, and even ordaining and orchestrating the collision of events that result in both tragedy and triumph on the civil stage. Satan has a major role of course, the one he played in the Garden of Eden. We LDS understand that God wanted Adam and Eve to eventually partake of the fruit, so in essence, he "used" Satan as the catalyst. Rom 14. In this chapter, Paul mentions a number of controversial "rules" that were practiced by some early Christians, including not eating meat, and observing certain celebrations or feast days. Some members esteemed these rules as essential commandments binding upon all Saints, and others believed that they were unnecessary. In this chapter, Paul tries to reconcile the two groups by validating both points of view, and then suggesting that both sides refrain from imposing their views on others, and judging them harshly. Paul's approach has a number of modern day applications. In our day there are a number of "rules" esteemed highly by some members, and not others. Examples in our day might include: drinking caffeinated sodas, watching rated R movies, certain political affiliations, believing in evolution, limiting the number of children you have, women working outside the home, performing only hymns from the hymn book in sacrament meeting, watching TV on Sunday, paying tithes on gifts, only fasting for a full and complete 24 hours, etc. While not all of these are perfectly compatible with Paul's particular issues, it may be helpful to some to read this chapter with some of these modern day "rules" in mind. While many in the church have passionate opinions and evidences for why certain of these "rules" are in fact essential commandments, others may claim equally passionately that these are not essential rules, citing anecdotes from the lives of General Authorities, or other rationalizations to justify their point of view. We can apply Paul's approach to these "rules" as long as we are careful not to include commandments that have firm, consistent doctrinal basis, such as abstaining from fornication. We can be certain from these scriptures and others, that Paul was more of a "spirit of the law" person than a "letter of the law" person. Those who follow the "letter of the law" Paul characterizes as "weak." Why does he call them weak? Paul believed that the Law of Moses was a taskmaster to bring us to Christ, a lesser law. The higher law is to have the law of Christ written not in tablets of stone but in the fleshy tablets of the heart. Those who still observe the law in it's more minor "letters," like not eating meat, are weaker in their faith. At the same time, those who are weaker are not condemned by Paul. He admonishes them in verse 5, "let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Many of us need the structure of rules and laws, even for minor things, in order to keep us focused on God, and perfect obedience to Him. For those who don't eat meat because they believe it to be an important law, God accepts their sacrifice of faith and obedience to Him. Were they to break the law, they would be under condemnation, for to them, it is wrong, and God holds us responsible for the laws that we believe and accept. Rom 14:14. Here we have evidence of the variability of certain "religious rules and practices." It is true that rules and practices sometimes change from culture to culture, dispensation to dispensation, and person to person. Sometimes these rules have a cultural origin rather than a Biblical or prophetic one. Sometimes these rules come from individual personal revelation for us. And sometimes they come from certain interpretations of the law. Paul says here that God doesn't always care what the rules are. What God cares about, is that each of us is true to what we personally believe. He that "esteemeth anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean." Our own beliefs may sometimes be variable, incomplete, or imperfect, but God does respect them. When we believe something about Him and his rules, He wants us to be true to those beliefs, even when they are incomplete. Again, this has modern day application, as long as we are careful not to apply it to those commandments like fornication, which are clearly forbidden. Rom 14:15. There is a tendency within the church to think that all Saints should believe the same thing and follow the same rules. However, Paul believes that the church should include members that sometimes share different beliefs. He admonishes us to be sensitive to each others beliefs. Using the example of meat, Paul says that it is unwise to eat meat in front of those who would be offended by it. Once I was in the home of my bishop, who had some rated R movies on his shelf. Although I myself was not offended by his library, I know others who would have been. There is a tendency towards self-righteousness on both sides. For example, some members seem to believe that it is impossible to be a good Mormon and a Democrat at the same time. I know of some Democrats who are "self-righteously" eager to share enlighten these "self-righteous" Republican saints. Paul admonishes us to be careful. Christ died for all, and has accepted all who have come unto Him, regardless of their individual beliefs. Shall we try put a wedge between them and Christ, by distracting our brethren by being too eager to enlighten them with our particular beliefs, which they may find offensive? The caveat is that sometimes Paul himself did take stands on issues like these. He seems to contradict his own advice in Galatians 2:11-14. He relates a confrontation he had with Peter over eating with Gentiles. Peter was eating with Gentiles, (forbidden by the Jewish law) and when he saw Christian Jews enter the room, he sheepishly withdrew from the Gentiles, so as to avoid being seen with them. Paul got angry with Peter and reproached him for his actions. In this example however, Peter was avoiding being seen with Gentiles. This was stronger than simply not eating meat, and Peter's actions condoned Christian Jewish prejudice against Christian Gentiles. For those of us who sometimes feel like Paul, that we need to stand up against "close-mindedness" or "prejudice" within the church, we should be very careful. We risk "destroying" the faith of others by doing so. Unless the actions and beliefs of others are truly harming the church, we should not go about removing motes from others eyes, when we surely have a beam in our own. Rom 14:22. When dealing with certain controversial rules or practices within the church, it is sometimes easy to doubt ourselves. There are a multitude of arguments on both sides that can cloud our understanding and cause us to be indecisive. We should remember that God doesn't necessarily care what we choose to believe on a particular controversial issue, as long as we believe it with faith and confidence, following our belief with exactness. "Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth." Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 12:19-20a. Verse 19 and the beginning of verse 20 seem to fit in well with Jesus's command to love our enemies (Matt 5:44). But how are we to understand the end of verse 20? At face value the end of verse 20 suggests that the motivation for doing good to our enemies, as Paul suggests, is not love, but an attempt to harm them. Under that reading this verse does not seem to fit in with Jesus's command to love our enemies. How can we reconcile this? (See also Prov 25:21-22.) Rom 13:1-5. Paul seems to be saying that governments have been ordained of God and exist to promote good. How does this apply in the case of a tyrannical government? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 9-11                      Next page: Chapters 15b-16

Rom 13:11-14

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 11-15a / Verses 12:1-15:13 Previous page: Chapters 9-11                      Next page: Chapters 15b-16 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 12:2: Transformed. The Greek word translated as "transformed" is metamorphoo (a cousin of the English word "metamorphosis"), which means to change to another form. The word is rare in the New Testament. Paul's use of the word in verse 2 may suggest a transformation greater than we can imagine. It is used only three other times in the New Testament: in Matthew 17:2 and Mark 9:2 to discuss Jesus' change at the Transfiguration, and in 2 Corinthians 3:18 to explain our transformation from glory to glory in the image of God. Rom 12:3: According as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Other translations say it this way, "in accordance with the amount of faith which God has alloted each one of us." Here we have evidence that God is responsible for the amount of faith we have in this life. Similar "predestination" issues were covered in Chapter 9. Understanding God's role in our individual gifts helps us be realistic about them. When we feel responsible for the amount of faith we have, or don't have, we may very well resort to pride, or despair. Pride, if we see ourselves as stronger and more disciplined than those with weaker faith, or despair, if we find it seems impossible achieve the kind of faith we see in some of our fellow saints. Paul reminds us that God has given us our place in this world, along with all of our gifts and weaknesses. For some of us, that means humbling ourselves and accepting our imperfections with honesty. For others, it means accepting that our gifts are not ours, but God's. For others, it means acknowledging that we do have gifts and strengths, and refusing to wallow in insecurity and self-deprecation. Rom 12:5: Becoming like Christ. "Becoming like Christ" is one of the great goals of every Saint. However, here on earth, that goal seems hopelessly lofty. Paul gives us a way to achieve that goal. Individually, we cannot become like Christ, but collectively, we become the "body of Christ." Every member has a different gift and mission, and working together, we become like Christ. The idea of the collective is very important in Christianity, either as a family, or as a church. We cannot be saved alone. If we are saved, we must be saved together, in families and congregations. Our individual lack is perfectly compatible within the Body of Christ, because others will have the strengths that we lack. We too will be able to pick up the slack when we have certain gifts that others lack. Rom 12:9. The Greek word translated as "without dissimulation" (anupokritos) in verse 9 means "unfeigned," "sincere" or "without hypocrisy." Rom 12:9: Cleave. The literal meaning of the Greek word translated as "cleave" (kollao) in verse 9 means "glue" or "fasten together." The Greek word translated as "abhor" (apostugeo) finds its only use in the New Testament in this verse. The word comes from root words that mean "to hate" and "to separate." In Greek, then, the contrast between "abhor" and "cleave" is even stronger, or at least more explicit, than it is in English: We are to hate evil and separate ourselves from it while we glue ourselves to what is good. 12:10: Brotherly love. The Greek word translated as "brotherly love" in verse 10 is philadelphia, which refers to the love that brothers and sisters show toward each other. It is related to the Greek word, philostorgos, which is translated here as "kindly affectioned." This is the only use of philostorgos is the New Testament; the word is usually used to refer to the love that parents and children show toward each other. Paul's use of these words suggests that we are to love and care for each other as members of the same family. His use of philostorgos and philadelphia in the same sentence provides a literary parallelism that is lost in translation. Rom 12:16. This discussion begins with verse 14. It is a series of admonitions or commandments about how we should relate to our brothers and sisters, first, and then about how to relate to others. Rom 12:16: Condescend. The Greek word sunapago translated as "condescend" does not mean to be condescending as we would use the word today. It means basically to associate with the lowly. Rom 12:17. The first clause repeats something already taught in Judaism, as we see in several proverbs (e.g., Proverbs 17:13, Proverbs 20:22, and Proverbs 24:29). In the second clause, Paul gives a rule of thumb for deciding what to do: “Take into consideration what everyone thinks is noble [literally ‘beautiful’].” The Hermeneia commentary on Romans (pages 772-73) suggests that it may also depend on Proverbs; it may be an adaptation of Proverbs 3:4. Rom 12:18. The double qualification that begins this verse—”if possible”; “insofar as it depends on you”—suggests that Paul knows how difficult it can be to live at peace with all. This seems to have two directions. The first has to do with me: I may be weak, but I should do what I can to live in peace. The second has to do with others: peace with others doesn’t depend wholly on me, so I can live in peace with them only insofar as it does depend on me. So the verse says that I should try as hard as I can to live in peace with others, recognizing that peace doesn’t completely depend on me. As the Hermeneia commentary on Romans notes, Paul may be alluding to Psalms 34:14 and Mark 9:50 (”Have peace with one another”). Rom 12:19. It is significant that Paul begins this verse by addressing his audience directly as “beloved.” It is a phrase he uses several times in Romans, especially in chapter 16 (verses 5, 8, 9, and 12). He also used it in the beginning of his letter (Romans 1:7). Paul is speaking to his audience, many of whom he knows personally, in personal terms rather than preaching to a general audience, so he uses an appropriate term of address. The King James translation makes clear we are forbidden to avenge ourselves. However, the real question comes in figuring out what Paul means when he says “leave room for the wrath.” If I can’t seek vengeance, then the wrath for which I am leaving room cannot be my wrath. It must be the wrath of God. If we take vengeance, then our wrath has taken the place of the wrath of God. We have substituted ourselves for God which is obviously impious. So, we must leave room for his wrath by not filling up that space with our own. As proof of his teaching, Paul quotes from a Greek version of Deuteronomy 32:35: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ saith the Lord.” Rom 12:20. Paul continues to cite scriptures to make his point, this time quoting Prov 25:21-22 (again quoting from the Greek version of the Old Testament, the Septuagint). The last half of verse 22 contains a promise of reward that Paul does not quote, “and the Lord shall reward thee.” Though the KJV begins this verse with “therefore,” “rather” or “but” is a better translation. The contrast is with the first part of verse 19: “Don’t look for revenge. Instead, feed your enemies . . . .” At first glance, Verse 20 seems like a contradiction of the overall message of the chapter--to love others, even our enemies, following the example of Christ. So what should we make of this verse? A majority of contemporary scholars believe that Prov 25:22 is an allusion to an Egyptian purification ritual in which a person carried a plate of hot coals on his head to signify repentance. In a similar vein, see Isaiah 6:5-7. There Isaiah laments his impurity and contrasts it with the holiness of God. Then a seraph touches a hot coal to Isaiah's lips, and Isaiah is purified. If we interpret the hot coals in this verse as similarly symbolic of purification (or repentance) then Paul may be telling us that by doing good to our enemies we are bringing about their repentance. Other explanations get to the same end by a different route. They take the hot coals as something painful at first which ultimately leads to repentance. In this case hot coals may be shame, pangs of guilt or embarrassment. In either case, most people understand this verse as teaching that if we do good to our enemies we will lead them to repentance. Nevertheless, another understanding is possible, we can read the hot coals as the Lord's vengeance in our behalf. Under this reading verse 19 and 20 say something like "don't take vengeance yourself. By being good to your enemy the Lord will take vengeance for you. And if instead of taking vengeance you are really nice to your enemy, your enemy will suffer terrible vengeance." But note that this reading changes the subject of who it is that heaps the coals. Verse 20 makes the audience the subject "...for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head" whereas the point of verse 19 is that we are not to seek vengeance. So knowing that they cannot seek vengeance themselves, it only makes sense for Paul to call the audience the "heapers" of the coals if we see them as getting vengeance by proxy, as the Lord takes vengeance. In other words, on this reading, Paul is saying, if you are good to your enemies you will get your vengeance. The problem with this reading is that, at least at first glance, it contradicts the overall message of the chapter--love your enemies following the example of Christ. However, the reading may be justified by the fact that we find essentially the same message in D&C 98:45. That verse, like this one, is embedded in a larger discussion of how we should treat our enemies with love. In following the second interpretation given above, the commandment is for us to love our neighbour and our enemy, and to forgive as many times as necessary. God forgives whom He will forgive. He, being omiscient and perfect in all things, is the One to whom final judgement is reserved. Everything that He does is in the interest of greater goodness for all His creations. This is part of why we leave vengeance to Him - because in Him, it's not really about vengeance, but love; for the wronged and those doing the wronging. If we act with compassion towards our enemies, and they in the future choose not to repent (not directly because of our actions, but with the combined effect of all their choices), the good that we have done them will convict them all the more, because they didn't respond to it with good of their own. It's not exactly the good we do them that turns to their condemnation, but the additional evidence, among all their acts, that their hearts are evil/hard/impure/rebellious. Also, although we should love our enemies, God's love and eternal law include punishment for evil acts not repented of. Love doesn't preclude judgement or recompense for wrong done. Acts and desires must have their consequence - but these are usually God's, not ours. So God is 'allowed', or rather required by eternal law and His own justice, to dispense punishments/consequences for evil. Us being loving towards our enemies doesn't contradict Him passing judgement on them or any other consequences they attract. Nor, of course, should it be our motivation. I think here Paul is stating a fact, not recommending a motivation. Rom 12:21. This is a good summary of Paul's teaching in verses 14-20. However, taking it as a summary of that teaching makes the last reading of verse 20 more difficult. Rom 13:1. According to Wesley's notes, Paul in this scripture issues a public apology for the Christian religion, who at the time were associated with the Jews, who were often rebellious to authority. Paul draws a clear distinction between Jewish and Christian attitudes towards civil authority. Christ disappointed the Jews by not liberating them from the civil law of the Romans. Instead, he taught that Jews should uphold the civil law, and render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's. Paul also suggests that civil authorities are ordained of God, and that they are ministers of God for good. Given that many of these powers that be were in fact evil dictators, Paul's statement seems greatly oversimplified. It could simply be that Paul didn't want the Christians to make any trouble. He also wanted it in writing that he strongly encouraged his Saints to obey the civil authorities. Perhaps by being so dogmatic in his support of civil law, he could stave off some of the impending civil persecution that would haunt the early Christian Church. The Christian mission was not to overthrow the government, as corrupt as it was. God would leave that to the barbarians. That was the message for the Christians in that time. However, applying the same advice to all situations is obviously problematic. It is reasonable to assume that Paul might indeed advocate civil disobedience under different circumstances. It is a true principle however that God ordains men, even imperfect or evil men to their positions of power. This fact is demonstrated in the selection of the early Jewish kings. The Prophet Samuel was commanded of God to select Saul to reign over the people as their first king. However, although he was ordained by a prophet of the Lord, Saul turned to wickedness. In the same way that God allows children to be born into the families of the wicked and abusive, God also allows people to be ruled by wicked dictators. Why would God would allow such things as the Holocaust to happen? These are some of the most difficult questions to answer, and they reach to core of the purpose of life on earth and the nature of human suffering. As much as we would like to blame Satan for all these terrible things, Paul reminds us in this scripture, and many others, that God is ultimately in charge, allowing, and even ordaining and orchestrating the collision of events that result in both tragedy and triumph on the civil stage. Satan has a major role of course, the one he played in the Garden of Eden. We LDS understand that God wanted Adam and Eve to eventually partake of the fruit, so in essence, he "used" Satan as the catalyst. Rom 14. In this chapter, Paul mentions a number of controversial "rules" that were practiced by some early Christians, including not eating meat, and observing certain celebrations or feast days. Some members esteemed these rules as essential commandments binding upon all Saints, and others believed that they were unnecessary. In this chapter, Paul tries to reconcile the two groups by validating both points of view, and then suggesting that both sides refrain from imposing their views on others, and judging them harshly. Paul's approach has a number of modern day applications. In our day there are a number of "rules" esteemed highly by some members, and not others. Examples in our day might include: drinking caffeinated sodas, watching rated R movies, certain political affiliations, believing in evolution, limiting the number of children you have, women working outside the home, performing only hymns from the hymn book in sacrament meeting, watching TV on Sunday, paying tithes on gifts, only fasting for a full and complete 24 hours, etc. While not all of these are perfectly compatible with Paul's particular issues, it may be helpful to some to read this chapter with some of these modern day "rules" in mind. While many in the church have passionate opinions and evidences for why certain of these "rules" are in fact essential commandments, others may claim equally passionately that these are not essential rules, citing anecdotes from the lives of General Authorities, or other rationalizations to justify their point of view. We can apply Paul's approach to these "rules" as long as we are careful not to include commandments that have firm, consistent doctrinal basis, such as abstaining from fornication. We can be certain from these scriptures and others, that Paul was more of a "spirit of the law" person than a "letter of the law" person. Those who follow the "letter of the law" Paul characterizes as "weak." Why does he call them weak? Paul believed that the Law of Moses was a taskmaster to bring us to Christ, a lesser law. The higher law is to have the law of Christ written not in tablets of stone but in the fleshy tablets of the heart. Those who still observe the law in it's more minor "letters," like not eating meat, are weaker in their faith. At the same time, those who are weaker are not condemned by Paul. He admonishes them in verse 5, "let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Many of us need the structure of rules and laws, even for minor things, in order to keep us focused on God, and perfect obedience to Him. For those who don't eat meat because they believe it to be an important law, God accepts their sacrifice of faith and obedience to Him. Were they to break the law, they would be under condemnation, for to them, it is wrong, and God holds us responsible for the laws that we believe and accept. Rom 14:14. Here we have evidence of the variability of certain "religious rules and practices." It is true that rules and practices sometimes change from culture to culture, dispensation to dispensation, and person to person. Sometimes these rules have a cultural origin rather than a Biblical or prophetic one. Sometimes these rules come from individual personal revelation for us. And sometimes they come from certain interpretations of the law. Paul says here that God doesn't always care what the rules are. What God cares about, is that each of us is true to what we personally believe. He that "esteemeth anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean." Our own beliefs may sometimes be variable, incomplete, or imperfect, but God does respect them. When we believe something about Him and his rules, He wants us to be true to those beliefs, even when they are incomplete. Again, this has modern day application, as long as we are careful not to apply it to those commandments like fornication, which are clearly forbidden. Rom 14:15. There is a tendency within the church to think that all Saints should believe the same thing and follow the same rules. However, Paul believes that the church should include members that sometimes share different beliefs. He admonishes us to be sensitive to each others beliefs. Using the example of meat, Paul says that it is unwise to eat meat in front of those who would be offended by it. Once I was in the home of my bishop, who had some rated R movies on his shelf. Although I myself was not offended by his library, I know others who would have been. There is a tendency towards self-righteousness on both sides. For example, some members seem to believe that it is impossible to be a good Mormon and a Democrat at the same time. I know of some Democrats who are "self-righteously" eager to share enlighten these "self-righteous" Republican saints. Paul admonishes us to be careful. Christ died for all, and has accepted all who have come unto Him, regardless of their individual beliefs. Shall we try put a wedge between them and Christ, by distracting our brethren by being too eager to enlighten them with our particular beliefs, which they may find offensive? The caveat is that sometimes Paul himself did take stands on issues like these. He seems to contradict his own advice in Galatians 2:11-14. He relates a confrontation he had with Peter over eating with Gentiles. Peter was eating with Gentiles, (forbidden by the Jewish law) and when he saw Christian Jews enter the room, he sheepishly withdrew from the Gentiles, so as to avoid being seen with them. Paul got angry with Peter and reproached him for his actions. In this example however, Peter was avoiding being seen with Gentiles. This was stronger than simply not eating meat, and Peter's actions condoned Christian Jewish prejudice against Christian Gentiles. For those of us who sometimes feel like Paul, that we need to stand up against "close-mindedness" or "prejudice" within the church, we should be very careful. We risk "destroying" the faith of others by doing so. Unless the actions and beliefs of others are truly harming the church, we should not go about removing motes from others eyes, when we surely have a beam in our own. Rom 14:22. When dealing with certain controversial rules or practices within the church, it is sometimes easy to doubt ourselves. There are a multitude of arguments on both sides that can cloud our understanding and cause us to be indecisive. We should remember that God doesn't necessarily care what we choose to believe on a particular controversial issue, as long as we believe it with faith and confidence, following our belief with exactness. "Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth." Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 12:19-20a. Verse 19 and the beginning of verse 20 seem to fit in well with Jesus's command to love our enemies (Matt 5:44). But how are we to understand the end of verse 20? At face value the end of verse 20 suggests that the motivation for doing good to our enemies, as Paul suggests, is not love, but an attempt to harm them. Under that reading this verse does not seem to fit in with Jesus's command to love our enemies. How can we reconcile this? (See also Prov 25:21-22.) Rom 13:1-5. Paul seems to be saying that governments have been ordained of God and exist to promote good. How does this apply in the case of a tyrannical government? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 9-11                      Next page: Chapters 15b-16

Rom 14:1-5

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 11-15a / Verses 12:1-15:13 Previous page: Chapters 9-11                      Next page: Chapters 15b-16 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 12:2: Transformed. The Greek word translated as "transformed" is metamorphoo (a cousin of the English word "metamorphosis"), which means to change to another form. The word is rare in the New Testament. Paul's use of the word in verse 2 may suggest a transformation greater than we can imagine. It is used only three other times in the New Testament: in Matthew 17:2 and Mark 9:2 to discuss Jesus' change at the Transfiguration, and in 2 Corinthians 3:18 to explain our transformation from glory to glory in the image of God. Rom 12:3: According as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Other translations say it this way, "in accordance with the amount of faith which God has alloted each one of us." Here we have evidence that God is responsible for the amount of faith we have in this life. Similar "predestination" issues were covered in Chapter 9. Understanding God's role in our individual gifts helps us be realistic about them. When we feel responsible for the amount of faith we have, or don't have, we may very well resort to pride, or despair. Pride, if we see ourselves as stronger and more disciplined than those with weaker faith, or despair, if we find it seems impossible achieve the kind of faith we see in some of our fellow saints. Paul reminds us that God has given us our place in this world, along with all of our gifts and weaknesses. For some of us, that means humbling ourselves and accepting our imperfections with honesty. For others, it means accepting that our gifts are not ours, but God's. For others, it means acknowledging that we do have gifts and strengths, and refusing to wallow in insecurity and self-deprecation. Rom 12:5: Becoming like Christ. "Becoming like Christ" is one of the great goals of every Saint. However, here on earth, that goal seems hopelessly lofty. Paul gives us a way to achieve that goal. Individually, we cannot become like Christ, but collectively, we become the "body of Christ." Every member has a different gift and mission, and working together, we become like Christ. The idea of the collective is very important in Christianity, either as a family, or as a church. We cannot be saved alone. If we are saved, we must be saved together, in families and congregations. Our individual lack is perfectly compatible within the Body of Christ, because others will have the strengths that we lack. We too will be able to pick up the slack when we have certain gifts that others lack. Rom 12:9. The Greek word translated as "without dissimulation" (anupokritos) in verse 9 means "unfeigned," "sincere" or "without hypocrisy." Rom 12:9: Cleave. The literal meaning of the Greek word translated as "cleave" (kollao) in verse 9 means "glue" or "fasten together." The Greek word translated as "abhor" (apostugeo) finds its only use in the New Testament in this verse. The word comes from root words that mean "to hate" and "to separate." In Greek, then, the contrast between "abhor" and "cleave" is even stronger, or at least more explicit, than it is in English: We are to hate evil and separate ourselves from it while we glue ourselves to what is good. 12:10: Brotherly love. The Greek word translated as "brotherly love" in verse 10 is philadelphia, which refers to the love that brothers and sisters show toward each other. It is related to the Greek word, philostorgos, which is translated here as "kindly affectioned." This is the only use of philostorgos is the New Testament; the word is usually used to refer to the love that parents and children show toward each other. Paul's use of these words suggests that we are to love and care for each other as members of the same family. His use of philostorgos and philadelphia in the same sentence provides a literary parallelism that is lost in translation. Rom 12:16. This discussion begins with verse 14. It is a series of admonitions or commandments about how we should relate to our brothers and sisters, first, and then about how to relate to others. Rom 12:16: Condescend. The Greek word sunapago translated as "condescend" does not mean to be condescending as we would use the word today. It means basically to associate with the lowly. Rom 12:17. The first clause repeats something already taught in Judaism, as we see in several proverbs (e.g., Proverbs 17:13, Proverbs 20:22, and Proverbs 24:29). In the second clause, Paul gives a rule of thumb for deciding what to do: “Take into consideration what everyone thinks is noble [literally ‘beautiful’].” The Hermeneia commentary on Romans (pages 772-73) suggests that it may also depend on Proverbs; it may be an adaptation of Proverbs 3:4. Rom 12:18. The double qualification that begins this verse—”if possible”; “insofar as it depends on you”—suggests that Paul knows how difficult it can be to live at peace with all. This seems to have two directions. The first has to do with me: I may be weak, but I should do what I can to live in peace. The second has to do with others: peace with others doesn’t depend wholly on me, so I can live in peace with them only insofar as it does depend on me. So the verse says that I should try as hard as I can to live in peace with others, recognizing that peace doesn’t completely depend on me. As the Hermeneia commentary on Romans notes, Paul may be alluding to Psalms 34:14 and Mark 9:50 (”Have peace with one another”). Rom 12:19. It is significant that Paul begins this verse by addressing his audience directly as “beloved.” It is a phrase he uses several times in Romans, especially in chapter 16 (verses 5, 8, 9, and 12). He also used it in the beginning of his letter (Romans 1:7). Paul is speaking to his audience, many of whom he knows personally, in personal terms rather than preaching to a general audience, so he uses an appropriate term of address. The King James translation makes clear we are forbidden to avenge ourselves. However, the real question comes in figuring out what Paul means when he says “leave room for the wrath.” If I can’t seek vengeance, then the wrath for which I am leaving room cannot be my wrath. It must be the wrath of God. If we take vengeance, then our wrath has taken the place of the wrath of God. We have substituted ourselves for God which is obviously impious. So, we must leave room for his wrath by not filling up that space with our own. As proof of his teaching, Paul quotes from a Greek version of Deuteronomy 32:35: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ saith the Lord.” Rom 12:20. Paul continues to cite scriptures to make his point, this time quoting Prov 25:21-22 (again quoting from the Greek version of the Old Testament, the Septuagint). The last half of verse 22 contains a promise of reward that Paul does not quote, “and the Lord shall reward thee.” Though the KJV begins this verse with “therefore,” “rather” or “but” is a better translation. The contrast is with the first part of verse 19: “Don’t look for revenge. Instead, feed your enemies . . . .” At first glance, Verse 20 seems like a contradiction of the overall message of the chapter--to love others, even our enemies, following the example of Christ. So what should we make of this verse? A majority of contemporary scholars believe that Prov 25:22 is an allusion to an Egyptian purification ritual in which a person carried a plate of hot coals on his head to signify repentance. In a similar vein, see Isaiah 6:5-7. There Isaiah laments his impurity and contrasts it with the holiness of God. Then a seraph touches a hot coal to Isaiah's lips, and Isaiah is purified. If we interpret the hot coals in this verse as similarly symbolic of purification (or repentance) then Paul may be telling us that by doing good to our enemies we are bringing about their repentance. Other explanations get to the same end by a different route. They take the hot coals as something painful at first which ultimately leads to repentance. In this case hot coals may be shame, pangs of guilt or embarrassment. In either case, most people understand this verse as teaching that if we do good to our enemies we will lead them to repentance. Nevertheless, another understanding is possible, we can read the hot coals as the Lord's vengeance in our behalf. Under this reading verse 19 and 20 say something like "don't take vengeance yourself. By being good to your enemy the Lord will take vengeance for you. And if instead of taking vengeance you are really nice to your enemy, your enemy will suffer terrible vengeance." But note that this reading changes the subject of who it is that heaps the coals. Verse 20 makes the audience the subject "...for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head" whereas the point of verse 19 is that we are not to seek vengeance. So knowing that they cannot seek vengeance themselves, it only makes sense for Paul to call the audience the "heapers" of the coals if we see them as getting vengeance by proxy, as the Lord takes vengeance. In other words, on this reading, Paul is saying, if you are good to your enemies you will get your vengeance. The problem with this reading is that, at least at first glance, it contradicts the overall message of the chapter--love your enemies following the example of Christ. However, the reading may be justified by the fact that we find essentially the same message in D&C 98:45. That verse, like this one, is embedded in a larger discussion of how we should treat our enemies with love. In following the second interpretation given above, the commandment is for us to love our neighbour and our enemy, and to forgive as many times as necessary. God forgives whom He will forgive. He, being omiscient and perfect in all things, is the One to whom final judgement is reserved. Everything that He does is in the interest of greater goodness for all His creations. This is part of why we leave vengeance to Him - because in Him, it's not really about vengeance, but love; for the wronged and those doing the wronging. If we act with compassion towards our enemies, and they in the future choose not to repent (not directly because of our actions, but with the combined effect of all their choices), the good that we have done them will convict them all the more, because they didn't respond to it with good of their own. It's not exactly the good we do them that turns to their condemnation, but the additional evidence, among all their acts, that their hearts are evil/hard/impure/rebellious. Also, although we should love our enemies, God's love and eternal law include punishment for evil acts not repented of. Love doesn't preclude judgement or recompense for wrong done. Acts and desires must have their consequence - but these are usually God's, not ours. So God is 'allowed', or rather required by eternal law and His own justice, to dispense punishments/consequences for evil. Us being loving towards our enemies doesn't contradict Him passing judgement on them or any other consequences they attract. Nor, of course, should it be our motivation. I think here Paul is stating a fact, not recommending a motivation. Rom 12:21. This is a good summary of Paul's teaching in verses 14-20. However, taking it as a summary of that teaching makes the last reading of verse 20 more difficult. Rom 13:1. According to Wesley's notes, Paul in this scripture issues a public apology for the Christian religion, who at the time were associated with the Jews, who were often rebellious to authority. Paul draws a clear distinction between Jewish and Christian attitudes towards civil authority. Christ disappointed the Jews by not liberating them from the civil law of the Romans. Instead, he taught that Jews should uphold the civil law, and render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's. Paul also suggests that civil authorities are ordained of God, and that they are ministers of God for good. Given that many of these powers that be were in fact evil dictators, Paul's statement seems greatly oversimplified. It could simply be that Paul didn't want the Christians to make any trouble. He also wanted it in writing that he strongly encouraged his Saints to obey the civil authorities. Perhaps by being so dogmatic in his support of civil law, he could stave off some of the impending civil persecution that would haunt the early Christian Church. The Christian mission was not to overthrow the government, as corrupt as it was. God would leave that to the barbarians. That was the message for the Christians in that time. However, applying the same advice to all situations is obviously problematic. It is reasonable to assume that Paul might indeed advocate civil disobedience under different circumstances. It is a true principle however that God ordains men, even imperfect or evil men to their positions of power. This fact is demonstrated in the selection of the early Jewish kings. The Prophet Samuel was commanded of God to select Saul to reign over the people as their first king. However, although he was ordained by a prophet of the Lord, Saul turned to wickedness. In the same way that God allows children to be born into the families of the wicked and abusive, God also allows people to be ruled by wicked dictators. Why would God would allow such things as the Holocaust to happen? These are some of the most difficult questions to answer, and they reach to core of the purpose of life on earth and the nature of human suffering. As much as we would like to blame Satan for all these terrible things, Paul reminds us in this scripture, and many others, that God is ultimately in charge, allowing, and even ordaining and orchestrating the collision of events that result in both tragedy and triumph on the civil stage. Satan has a major role of course, the one he played in the Garden of Eden. We LDS understand that God wanted Adam and Eve to eventually partake of the fruit, so in essence, he "used" Satan as the catalyst. Rom 14. In this chapter, Paul mentions a number of controversial "rules" that were practiced by some early Christians, including not eating meat, and observing certain celebrations or feast days. Some members esteemed these rules as essential commandments binding upon all Saints, and others believed that they were unnecessary. In this chapter, Paul tries to reconcile the two groups by validating both points of view, and then suggesting that both sides refrain from imposing their views on others, and judging them harshly. Paul's approach has a number of modern day applications. In our day there are a number of "rules" esteemed highly by some members, and not others. Examples in our day might include: drinking caffeinated sodas, watching rated R movies, certain political affiliations, believing in evolution, limiting the number of children you have, women working outside the home, performing only hymns from the hymn book in sacrament meeting, watching TV on Sunday, paying tithes on gifts, only fasting for a full and complete 24 hours, etc. While not all of these are perfectly compatible with Paul's particular issues, it may be helpful to some to read this chapter with some of these modern day "rules" in mind. While many in the church have passionate opinions and evidences for why certain of these "rules" are in fact essential commandments, others may claim equally passionately that these are not essential rules, citing anecdotes from the lives of General Authorities, or other rationalizations to justify their point of view. We can apply Paul's approach to these "rules" as long as we are careful not to include commandments that have firm, consistent doctrinal basis, such as abstaining from fornication. We can be certain from these scriptures and others, that Paul was more of a "spirit of the law" person than a "letter of the law" person. Those who follow the "letter of the law" Paul characterizes as "weak." Why does he call them weak? Paul believed that the Law of Moses was a taskmaster to bring us to Christ, a lesser law. The higher law is to have the law of Christ written not in tablets of stone but in the fleshy tablets of the heart. Those who still observe the law in it's more minor "letters," like not eating meat, are weaker in their faith. At the same time, those who are weaker are not condemned by Paul. He admonishes them in verse 5, "let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Many of us need the structure of rules and laws, even for minor things, in order to keep us focused on God, and perfect obedience to Him. For those who don't eat meat because they believe it to be an important law, God accepts their sacrifice of faith and obedience to Him. Were they to break the law, they would be under condemnation, for to them, it is wrong, and God holds us responsible for the laws that we believe and accept. Rom 14:14. Here we have evidence of the variability of certain "religious rules and practices." It is true that rules and practices sometimes change from culture to culture, dispensation to dispensation, and person to person. Sometimes these rules have a cultural origin rather than a Biblical or prophetic one. Sometimes these rules come from individual personal revelation for us. And sometimes they come from certain interpretations of the law. Paul says here that God doesn't always care what the rules are. What God cares about, is that each of us is true to what we personally believe. He that "esteemeth anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean." Our own beliefs may sometimes be variable, incomplete, or imperfect, but God does respect them. When we believe something about Him and his rules, He wants us to be true to those beliefs, even when they are incomplete. Again, this has modern day application, as long as we are careful not to apply it to those commandments like fornication, which are clearly forbidden. Rom 14:15. There is a tendency within the church to think that all Saints should believe the same thing and follow the same rules. However, Paul believes that the church should include members that sometimes share different beliefs. He admonishes us to be sensitive to each others beliefs. Using the example of meat, Paul says that it is unwise to eat meat in front of those who would be offended by it. Once I was in the home of my bishop, who had some rated R movies on his shelf. Although I myself was not offended by his library, I know others who would have been. There is a tendency towards self-righteousness on both sides. For example, some members seem to believe that it is impossible to be a good Mormon and a Democrat at the same time. I know of some Democrats who are "self-righteously" eager to share enlighten these "self-righteous" Republican saints. Paul admonishes us to be careful. Christ died for all, and has accepted all who have come unto Him, regardless of their individual beliefs. Shall we try put a wedge between them and Christ, by distracting our brethren by being too eager to enlighten them with our particular beliefs, which they may find offensive? The caveat is that sometimes Paul himself did take stands on issues like these. He seems to contradict his own advice in Galatians 2:11-14. He relates a confrontation he had with Peter over eating with Gentiles. Peter was eating with Gentiles, (forbidden by the Jewish law) and when he saw Christian Jews enter the room, he sheepishly withdrew from the Gentiles, so as to avoid being seen with them. Paul got angry with Peter and reproached him for his actions. In this example however, Peter was avoiding being seen with Gentiles. This was stronger than simply not eating meat, and Peter's actions condoned Christian Jewish prejudice against Christian Gentiles. For those of us who sometimes feel like Paul, that we need to stand up against "close-mindedness" or "prejudice" within the church, we should be very careful. We risk "destroying" the faith of others by doing so. Unless the actions and beliefs of others are truly harming the church, we should not go about removing motes from others eyes, when we surely have a beam in our own. Rom 14:22. When dealing with certain controversial rules or practices within the church, it is sometimes easy to doubt ourselves. There are a multitude of arguments on both sides that can cloud our understanding and cause us to be indecisive. We should remember that God doesn't necessarily care what we choose to believe on a particular controversial issue, as long as we believe it with faith and confidence, following our belief with exactness. "Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth." Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 12:19-20a. Verse 19 and the beginning of verse 20 seem to fit in well with Jesus's command to love our enemies (Matt 5:44). But how are we to understand the end of verse 20? At face value the end of verse 20 suggests that the motivation for doing good to our enemies, as Paul suggests, is not love, but an attempt to harm them. Under that reading this verse does not seem to fit in with Jesus's command to love our enemies. How can we reconcile this? (See also Prov 25:21-22.) Rom 13:1-5. Paul seems to be saying that governments have been ordained of God and exist to promote good. How does this apply in the case of a tyrannical government? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 9-11                      Next page: Chapters 15b-16

Rom 14:6-10

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 11-15a / Verses 12:1-15:13 Previous page: Chapters 9-11                      Next page: Chapters 15b-16 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 12:2: Transformed. The Greek word translated as "transformed" is metamorphoo (a cousin of the English word "metamorphosis"), which means to change to another form. The word is rare in the New Testament. Paul's use of the word in verse 2 may suggest a transformation greater than we can imagine. It is used only three other times in the New Testament: in Matthew 17:2 and Mark 9:2 to discuss Jesus' change at the Transfiguration, and in 2 Corinthians 3:18 to explain our transformation from glory to glory in the image of God. Rom 12:3: According as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Other translations say it this way, "in accordance with the amount of faith which God has alloted each one of us." Here we have evidence that God is responsible for the amount of faith we have in this life. Similar "predestination" issues were covered in Chapter 9. Understanding God's role in our individual gifts helps us be realistic about them. When we feel responsible for the amount of faith we have, or don't have, we may very well resort to pride, or despair. Pride, if we see ourselves as stronger and more disciplined than those with weaker faith, or despair, if we find it seems impossible achieve the kind of faith we see in some of our fellow saints. Paul reminds us that God has given us our place in this world, along with all of our gifts and weaknesses. For some of us, that means humbling ourselves and accepting our imperfections with honesty. For others, it means accepting that our gifts are not ours, but God's. For others, it means acknowledging that we do have gifts and strengths, and refusing to wallow in insecurity and self-deprecation. Rom 12:5: Becoming like Christ. "Becoming like Christ" is one of the great goals of every Saint. However, here on earth, that goal seems hopelessly lofty. Paul gives us a way to achieve that goal. Individually, we cannot become like Christ, but collectively, we become the "body of Christ." Every member has a different gift and mission, and working together, we become like Christ. The idea of the collective is very important in Christianity, either as a family, or as a church. We cannot be saved alone. If we are saved, we must be saved together, in families and congregations. Our individual lack is perfectly compatible within the Body of Christ, because others will have the strengths that we lack. We too will be able to pick up the slack when we have certain gifts that others lack. Rom 12:9. The Greek word translated as "without dissimulation" (anupokritos) in verse 9 means "unfeigned," "sincere" or "without hypocrisy." Rom 12:9: Cleave. The literal meaning of the Greek word translated as "cleave" (kollao) in verse 9 means "glue" or "fasten together." The Greek word translated as "abhor" (apostugeo) finds its only use in the New Testament in this verse. The word comes from root words that mean "to hate" and "to separate." In Greek, then, the contrast between "abhor" and "cleave" is even stronger, or at least more explicit, than it is in English: We are to hate evil and separate ourselves from it while we glue ourselves to what is good. 12:10: Brotherly love. The Greek word translated as "brotherly love" in verse 10 is philadelphia, which refers to the love that brothers and sisters show toward each other. It is related to the Greek word, philostorgos, which is translated here as "kindly affectioned." This is the only use of philostorgos is the New Testament; the word is usually used to refer to the love that parents and children show toward each other. Paul's use of these words suggests that we are to love and care for each other as members of the same family. His use of philostorgos and philadelphia in the same sentence provides a literary parallelism that is lost in translation. Rom 12:16. This discussion begins with verse 14. It is a series of admonitions or commandments about how we should relate to our brothers and sisters, first, and then about how to relate to others. Rom 12:16: Condescend. The Greek word sunapago translated as "condescend" does not mean to be condescending as we would use the word today. It means basically to associate with the lowly. Rom 12:17. The first clause repeats something already taught in Judaism, as we see in several proverbs (e.g., Proverbs 17:13, Proverbs 20:22, and Proverbs 24:29). In the second clause, Paul gives a rule of thumb for deciding what to do: “Take into consideration what everyone thinks is noble [literally ‘beautiful’].” The Hermeneia commentary on Romans (pages 772-73) suggests that it may also depend on Proverbs; it may be an adaptation of Proverbs 3:4. Rom 12:18. The double qualification that begins this verse—”if possible”; “insofar as it depends on you”—suggests that Paul knows how difficult it can be to live at peace with all. This seems to have two directions. The first has to do with me: I may be weak, but I should do what I can to live in peace. The second has to do with others: peace with others doesn’t depend wholly on me, so I can live in peace with them only insofar as it does depend on me. So the verse says that I should try as hard as I can to live in peace with others, recognizing that peace doesn’t completely depend on me. As the Hermeneia commentary on Romans notes, Paul may be alluding to Psalms 34:14 and Mark 9:50 (”Have peace with one another”). Rom 12:19. It is significant that Paul begins this verse by addressing his audience directly as “beloved.” It is a phrase he uses several times in Romans, especially in chapter 16 (verses 5, 8, 9, and 12). He also used it in the beginning of his letter (Romans 1:7). Paul is speaking to his audience, many of whom he knows personally, in personal terms rather than preaching to a general audience, so he uses an appropriate term of address. The King James translation makes clear we are forbidden to avenge ourselves. However, the real question comes in figuring out what Paul means when he says “leave room for the wrath.” If I can’t seek vengeance, then the wrath for which I am leaving room cannot be my wrath. It must be the wrath of God. If we take vengeance, then our wrath has taken the place of the wrath of God. We have substituted ourselves for God which is obviously impious. So, we must leave room for his wrath by not filling up that space with our own. As proof of his teaching, Paul quotes from a Greek version of Deuteronomy 32:35: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ saith the Lord.” Rom 12:20. Paul continues to cite scriptures to make his point, this time quoting Prov 25:21-22 (again quoting from the Greek version of the Old Testament, the Septuagint). The last half of verse 22 contains a promise of reward that Paul does not quote, “and the Lord shall reward thee.” Though the KJV begins this verse with “therefore,” “rather” or “but” is a better translation. The contrast is with the first part of verse 19: “Don’t look for revenge. Instead, feed your enemies . . . .” At first glance, Verse 20 seems like a contradiction of the overall message of the chapter--to love others, even our enemies, following the example of Christ. So what should we make of this verse? A majority of contemporary scholars believe that Prov 25:22 is an allusion to an Egyptian purification ritual in which a person carried a plate of hot coals on his head to signify repentance. In a similar vein, see Isaiah 6:5-7. There Isaiah laments his impurity and contrasts it with the holiness of God. Then a seraph touches a hot coal to Isaiah's lips, and Isaiah is purified. If we interpret the hot coals in this verse as similarly symbolic of purification (or repentance) then Paul may be telling us that by doing good to our enemies we are bringing about their repentance. Other explanations get to the same end by a different route. They take the hot coals as something painful at first which ultimately leads to repentance. In this case hot coals may be shame, pangs of guilt or embarrassment. In either case, most people understand this verse as teaching that if we do good to our enemies we will lead them to repentance. Nevertheless, another understanding is possible, we can read the hot coals as the Lord's vengeance in our behalf. Under this reading verse 19 and 20 say something like "don't take vengeance yourself. By being good to your enemy the Lord will take vengeance for you. And if instead of taking vengeance you are really nice to your enemy, your enemy will suffer terrible vengeance." But note that this reading changes the subject of who it is that heaps the coals. Verse 20 makes the audience the subject "...for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head" whereas the point of verse 19 is that we are not to seek vengeance. So knowing that they cannot seek vengeance themselves, it only makes sense for Paul to call the audience the "heapers" of the coals if we see them as getting vengeance by proxy, as the Lord takes vengeance. In other words, on this reading, Paul is saying, if you are good to your enemies you will get your vengeance. The problem with this reading is that, at least at first glance, it contradicts the overall message of the chapter--love your enemies following the example of Christ. However, the reading may be justified by the fact that we find essentially the same message in D&C 98:45. That verse, like this one, is embedded in a larger discussion of how we should treat our enemies with love. In following the second interpretation given above, the commandment is for us to love our neighbour and our enemy, and to forgive as many times as necessary. God forgives whom He will forgive. He, being omiscient and perfect in all things, is the One to whom final judgement is reserved. Everything that He does is in the interest of greater goodness for all His creations. This is part of why we leave vengeance to Him - because in Him, it's not really about vengeance, but love; for the wronged and those doing the wronging. If we act with compassion towards our enemies, and they in the future choose not to repent (not directly because of our actions, but with the combined effect of all their choices), the good that we have done them will convict them all the more, because they didn't respond to it with good of their own. It's not exactly the good we do them that turns to their condemnation, but the additional evidence, among all their acts, that their hearts are evil/hard/impure/rebellious. Also, although we should love our enemies, God's love and eternal law include punishment for evil acts not repented of. Love doesn't preclude judgement or recompense for wrong done. Acts and desires must have their consequence - but these are usually God's, not ours. So God is 'allowed', or rather required by eternal law and His own justice, to dispense punishments/consequences for evil. Us being loving towards our enemies doesn't contradict Him passing judgement on them or any other consequences they attract. Nor, of course, should it be our motivation. I think here Paul is stating a fact, not recommending a motivation. Rom 12:21. This is a good summary of Paul's teaching in verses 14-20. However, taking it as a summary of that teaching makes the last reading of verse 20 more difficult. Rom 13:1. According to Wesley's notes, Paul in this scripture issues a public apology for the Christian religion, who at the time were associated with the Jews, who were often rebellious to authority. Paul draws a clear distinction between Jewish and Christian attitudes towards civil authority. Christ disappointed the Jews by not liberating them from the civil law of the Romans. Instead, he taught that Jews should uphold the civil law, and render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's. Paul also suggests that civil authorities are ordained of God, and that they are ministers of God for good. Given that many of these powers that be were in fact evil dictators, Paul's statement seems greatly oversimplified. It could simply be that Paul didn't want the Christians to make any trouble. He also wanted it in writing that he strongly encouraged his Saints to obey the civil authorities. Perhaps by being so dogmatic in his support of civil law, he could stave off some of the impending civil persecution that would haunt the early Christian Church. The Christian mission was not to overthrow the government, as corrupt as it was. God would leave that to the barbarians. That was the message for the Christians in that time. However, applying the same advice to all situations is obviously problematic. It is reasonable to assume that Paul might indeed advocate civil disobedience under different circumstances. It is a true principle however that God ordains men, even imperfect or evil men to their positions of power. This fact is demonstrated in the selection of the early Jewish kings. The Prophet Samuel was commanded of God to select Saul to reign over the people as their first king. However, although he was ordained by a prophet of the Lord, Saul turned to wickedness. In the same way that God allows children to be born into the families of the wicked and abusive, God also allows people to be ruled by wicked dictators. Why would God would allow such things as the Holocaust to happen? These are some of the most difficult questions to answer, and they reach to core of the purpose of life on earth and the nature of human suffering. As much as we would like to blame Satan for all these terrible things, Paul reminds us in this scripture, and many others, that God is ultimately in charge, allowing, and even ordaining and orchestrating the collision of events that result in both tragedy and triumph on the civil stage. Satan has a major role of course, the one he played in the Garden of Eden. We LDS understand that God wanted Adam and Eve to eventually partake of the fruit, so in essence, he "used" Satan as the catalyst. Rom 14. In this chapter, Paul mentions a number of controversial "rules" that were practiced by some early Christians, including not eating meat, and observing certain celebrations or feast days. Some members esteemed these rules as essential commandments binding upon all Saints, and others believed that they were unnecessary. In this chapter, Paul tries to reconcile the two groups by validating both points of view, and then suggesting that both sides refrain from imposing their views on others, and judging them harshly. Paul's approach has a number of modern day applications. In our day there are a number of "rules" esteemed highly by some members, and not others. Examples in our day might include: drinking caffeinated sodas, watching rated R movies, certain political affiliations, believing in evolution, limiting the number of children you have, women working outside the home, performing only hymns from the hymn book in sacrament meeting, watching TV on Sunday, paying tithes on gifts, only fasting for a full and complete 24 hours, etc. While not all of these are perfectly compatible with Paul's particular issues, it may be helpful to some to read this chapter with some of these modern day "rules" in mind. While many in the church have passionate opinions and evidences for why certain of these "rules" are in fact essential commandments, others may claim equally passionately that these are not essential rules, citing anecdotes from the lives of General Authorities, or other rationalizations to justify their point of view. We can apply Paul's approach to these "rules" as long as we are careful not to include commandments that have firm, consistent doctrinal basis, such as abstaining from fornication. We can be certain from these scriptures and others, that Paul was more of a "spirit of the law" person than a "letter of the law" person. Those who follow the "letter of the law" Paul characterizes as "weak." Why does he call them weak? Paul believed that the Law of Moses was a taskmaster to bring us to Christ, a lesser law. The higher law is to have the law of Christ written not in tablets of stone but in the fleshy tablets of the heart. Those who still observe the law in it's more minor "letters," like not eating meat, are weaker in their faith. At the same time, those who are weaker are not condemned by Paul. He admonishes them in verse 5, "let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Many of us need the structure of rules and laws, even for minor things, in order to keep us focused on God, and perfect obedience to Him. For those who don't eat meat because they believe it to be an important law, God accepts their sacrifice of faith and obedience to Him. Were they to break the law, they would be under condemnation, for to them, it is wrong, and God holds us responsible for the laws that we believe and accept. Rom 14:14. Here we have evidence of the variability of certain "religious rules and practices." It is true that rules and practices sometimes change from culture to culture, dispensation to dispensation, and person to person. Sometimes these rules have a cultural origin rather than a Biblical or prophetic one. Sometimes these rules come from individual personal revelation for us. And sometimes they come from certain interpretations of the law. Paul says here that God doesn't always care what the rules are. What God cares about, is that each of us is true to what we personally believe. He that "esteemeth anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean." Our own beliefs may sometimes be variable, incomplete, or imperfect, but God does respect them. When we believe something about Him and his rules, He wants us to be true to those beliefs, even when they are incomplete. Again, this has modern day application, as long as we are careful not to apply it to those commandments like fornication, which are clearly forbidden. Rom 14:15. There is a tendency within the church to think that all Saints should believe the same thing and follow the same rules. However, Paul believes that the church should include members that sometimes share different beliefs. He admonishes us to be sensitive to each others beliefs. Using the example of meat, Paul says that it is unwise to eat meat in front of those who would be offended by it. Once I was in the home of my bishop, who had some rated R movies on his shelf. Although I myself was not offended by his library, I know others who would have been. There is a tendency towards self-righteousness on both sides. For example, some members seem to believe that it is impossible to be a good Mormon and a Democrat at the same time. I know of some Democrats who are "self-righteously" eager to share enlighten these "self-righteous" Republican saints. Paul admonishes us to be careful. Christ died for all, and has accepted all who have come unto Him, regardless of their individual beliefs. Shall we try put a wedge between them and Christ, by distracting our brethren by being too eager to enlighten them with our particular beliefs, which they may find offensive? The caveat is that sometimes Paul himself did take stands on issues like these. He seems to contradict his own advice in Galatians 2:11-14. He relates a confrontation he had with Peter over eating with Gentiles. Peter was eating with Gentiles, (forbidden by the Jewish law) and when he saw Christian Jews enter the room, he sheepishly withdrew from the Gentiles, so as to avoid being seen with them. Paul got angry with Peter and reproached him for his actions. In this example however, Peter was avoiding being seen with Gentiles. This was stronger than simply not eating meat, and Peter's actions condoned Christian Jewish prejudice against Christian Gentiles. For those of us who sometimes feel like Paul, that we need to stand up against "close-mindedness" or "prejudice" within the church, we should be very careful. We risk "destroying" the faith of others by doing so. Unless the actions and beliefs of others are truly harming the church, we should not go about removing motes from others eyes, when we surely have a beam in our own. Rom 14:22. When dealing with certain controversial rules or practices within the church, it is sometimes easy to doubt ourselves. There are a multitude of arguments on both sides that can cloud our understanding and cause us to be indecisive. We should remember that God doesn't necessarily care what we choose to believe on a particular controversial issue, as long as we believe it with faith and confidence, following our belief with exactness. "Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth." Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 12:19-20a. Verse 19 and the beginning of verse 20 seem to fit in well with Jesus's command to love our enemies (Matt 5:44). But how are we to understand the end of verse 20? At face value the end of verse 20 suggests that the motivation for doing good to our enemies, as Paul suggests, is not love, but an attempt to harm them. Under that reading this verse does not seem to fit in with Jesus's command to love our enemies. How can we reconcile this? (See also Prov 25:21-22.) Rom 13:1-5. Paul seems to be saying that governments have been ordained of God and exist to promote good. How does this apply in the case of a tyrannical government? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 9-11                      Next page: Chapters 15b-16

Rom 14:11-15

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 11-15a / Verses 12:1-15:13 Previous page: Chapters 9-11                      Next page: Chapters 15b-16 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 12:2: Transformed. The Greek word translated as "transformed" is metamorphoo (a cousin of the English word "metamorphosis"), which means to change to another form. The word is rare in the New Testament. Paul's use of the word in verse 2 may suggest a transformation greater than we can imagine. It is used only three other times in the New Testament: in Matthew 17:2 and Mark 9:2 to discuss Jesus' change at the Transfiguration, and in 2 Corinthians 3:18 to explain our transformation from glory to glory in the image of God. Rom 12:3: According as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Other translations say it this way, "in accordance with the amount of faith which God has alloted each one of us." Here we have evidence that God is responsible for the amount of faith we have in this life. Similar "predestination" issues were covered in Chapter 9. Understanding God's role in our individual gifts helps us be realistic about them. When we feel responsible for the amount of faith we have, or don't have, we may very well resort to pride, or despair. Pride, if we see ourselves as stronger and more disciplined than those with weaker faith, or despair, if we find it seems impossible achieve the kind of faith we see in some of our fellow saints. Paul reminds us that God has given us our place in this world, along with all of our gifts and weaknesses. For some of us, that means humbling ourselves and accepting our imperfections with honesty. For others, it means accepting that our gifts are not ours, but God's. For others, it means acknowledging that we do have gifts and strengths, and refusing to wallow in insecurity and self-deprecation. Rom 12:5: Becoming like Christ. "Becoming like Christ" is one of the great goals of every Saint. However, here on earth, that goal seems hopelessly lofty. Paul gives us a way to achieve that goal. Individually, we cannot become like Christ, but collectively, we become the "body of Christ." Every member has a different gift and mission, and working together, we become like Christ. The idea of the collective is very important in Christianity, either as a family, or as a church. We cannot be saved alone. If we are saved, we must be saved together, in families and congregations. Our individual lack is perfectly compatible within the Body of Christ, because others will have the strengths that we lack. We too will be able to pick up the slack when we have certain gifts that others lack. Rom 12:9. The Greek word translated as "without dissimulation" (anupokritos) in verse 9 means "unfeigned," "sincere" or "without hypocrisy." Rom 12:9: Cleave. The literal meaning of the Greek word translated as "cleave" (kollao) in verse 9 means "glue" or "fasten together." The Greek word translated as "abhor" (apostugeo) finds its only use in the New Testament in this verse. The word comes from root words that mean "to hate" and "to separate." In Greek, then, the contrast between "abhor" and "cleave" is even stronger, or at least more explicit, than it is in English: We are to hate evil and separate ourselves from it while we glue ourselves to what is good. 12:10: Brotherly love. The Greek word translated as "brotherly love" in verse 10 is philadelphia, which refers to the love that brothers and sisters show toward each other. It is related to the Greek word, philostorgos, which is translated here as "kindly affectioned." This is the only use of philostorgos is the New Testament; the word is usually used to refer to the love that parents and children show toward each other. Paul's use of these words suggests that we are to love and care for each other as members of the same family. His use of philostorgos and philadelphia in the same sentence provides a literary parallelism that is lost in translation. Rom 12:16. This discussion begins with verse 14. It is a series of admonitions or commandments about how we should relate to our brothers and sisters, first, and then about how to relate to others. Rom 12:16: Condescend. The Greek word sunapago translated as "condescend" does not mean to be condescending as we would use the word today. It means basically to associate with the lowly. Rom 12:17. The first clause repeats something already taught in Judaism, as we see in several proverbs (e.g., Proverbs 17:13, Proverbs 20:22, and Proverbs 24:29). In the second clause, Paul gives a rule of thumb for deciding what to do: “Take into consideration what everyone thinks is noble [literally ‘beautiful’].” The Hermeneia commentary on Romans (pages 772-73) suggests that it may also depend on Proverbs; it may be an adaptation of Proverbs 3:4. Rom 12:18. The double qualification that begins this verse—”if possible”; “insofar as it depends on you”—suggests that Paul knows how difficult it can be to live at peace with all. This seems to have two directions. The first has to do with me: I may be weak, but I should do what I can to live in peace. The second has to do with others: peace with others doesn’t depend wholly on me, so I can live in peace with them only insofar as it does depend on me. So the verse says that I should try as hard as I can to live in peace with others, recognizing that peace doesn’t completely depend on me. As the Hermeneia commentary on Romans notes, Paul may be alluding to Psalms 34:14 and Mark 9:50 (”Have peace with one another”). Rom 12:19. It is significant that Paul begins this verse by addressing his audience directly as “beloved.” It is a phrase he uses several times in Romans, especially in chapter 16 (verses 5, 8, 9, and 12). He also used it in the beginning of his letter (Romans 1:7). Paul is speaking to his audience, many of whom he knows personally, in personal terms rather than preaching to a general audience, so he uses an appropriate term of address. The King James translation makes clear we are forbidden to avenge ourselves. However, the real question comes in figuring out what Paul means when he says “leave room for the wrath.” If I can’t seek vengeance, then the wrath for which I am leaving room cannot be my wrath. It must be the wrath of God. If we take vengeance, then our wrath has taken the place of the wrath of God. We have substituted ourselves for God which is obviously impious. So, we must leave room for his wrath by not filling up that space with our own. As proof of his teaching, Paul quotes from a Greek version of Deuteronomy 32:35: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ saith the Lord.” Rom 12:20. Paul continues to cite scriptures to make his point, this time quoting Prov 25:21-22 (again quoting from the Greek version of the Old Testament, the Septuagint). The last half of verse 22 contains a promise of reward that Paul does not quote, “and the Lord shall reward thee.” Though the KJV begins this verse with “therefore,” “rather” or “but” is a better translation. The contrast is with the first part of verse 19: “Don’t look for revenge. Instead, feed your enemies . . . .” At first glance, Verse 20 seems like a contradiction of the overall message of the chapter--to love others, even our enemies, following the example of Christ. So what should we make of this verse? A majority of contemporary scholars believe that Prov 25:22 is an allusion to an Egyptian purification ritual in which a person carried a plate of hot coals on his head to signify repentance. In a similar vein, see Isaiah 6:5-7. There Isaiah laments his impurity and contrasts it with the holiness of God. Then a seraph touches a hot coal to Isaiah's lips, and Isaiah is purified. If we interpret the hot coals in this verse as similarly symbolic of purification (or repentance) then Paul may be telling us that by doing good to our enemies we are bringing about their repentance. Other explanations get to the same end by a different route. They take the hot coals as something painful at first which ultimately leads to repentance. In this case hot coals may be shame, pangs of guilt or embarrassment. In either case, most people understand this verse as teaching that if we do good to our enemies we will lead them to repentance. Nevertheless, another understanding is possible, we can read the hot coals as the Lord's vengeance in our behalf. Under this reading verse 19 and 20 say something like "don't take vengeance yourself. By being good to your enemy the Lord will take vengeance for you. And if instead of taking vengeance you are really nice to your enemy, your enemy will suffer terrible vengeance." But note that this reading changes the subject of who it is that heaps the coals. Verse 20 makes the audience the subject "...for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head" whereas the point of verse 19 is that we are not to seek vengeance. So knowing that they cannot seek vengeance themselves, it only makes sense for Paul to call the audience the "heapers" of the coals if we see them as getting vengeance by proxy, as the Lord takes vengeance. In other words, on this reading, Paul is saying, if you are good to your enemies you will get your vengeance. The problem with this reading is that, at least at first glance, it contradicts the overall message of the chapter--love your enemies following the example of Christ. However, the reading may be justified by the fact that we find essentially the same message in D&C 98:45. That verse, like this one, is embedded in a larger discussion of how we should treat our enemies with love. In following the second interpretation given above, the commandment is for us to love our neighbour and our enemy, and to forgive as many times as necessary. God forgives whom He will forgive. He, being omiscient and perfect in all things, is the One to whom final judgement is reserved. Everything that He does is in the interest of greater goodness for all His creations. This is part of why we leave vengeance to Him - because in Him, it's not really about vengeance, but love; for the wronged and those doing the wronging. If we act with compassion towards our enemies, and they in the future choose not to repent (not directly because of our actions, but with the combined effect of all their choices), the good that we have done them will convict them all the more, because they didn't respond to it with good of their own. It's not exactly the good we do them that turns to their condemnation, but the additional evidence, among all their acts, that their hearts are evil/hard/impure/rebellious. Also, although we should love our enemies, God's love and eternal law include punishment for evil acts not repented of. Love doesn't preclude judgement or recompense for wrong done. Acts and desires must have their consequence - but these are usually God's, not ours. So God is 'allowed', or rather required by eternal law and His own justice, to dispense punishments/consequences for evil. Us being loving towards our enemies doesn't contradict Him passing judgement on them or any other consequences they attract. Nor, of course, should it be our motivation. I think here Paul is stating a fact, not recommending a motivation. Rom 12:21. This is a good summary of Paul's teaching in verses 14-20. However, taking it as a summary of that teaching makes the last reading of verse 20 more difficult. Rom 13:1. According to Wesley's notes, Paul in this scripture issues a public apology for the Christian religion, who at the time were associated with the Jews, who were often rebellious to authority. Paul draws a clear distinction between Jewish and Christian attitudes towards civil authority. Christ disappointed the Jews by not liberating them from the civil law of the Romans. Instead, he taught that Jews should uphold the civil law, and render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's. Paul also suggests that civil authorities are ordained of God, and that they are ministers of God for good. Given that many of these powers that be were in fact evil dictators, Paul's statement seems greatly oversimplified. It could simply be that Paul didn't want the Christians to make any trouble. He also wanted it in writing that he strongly encouraged his Saints to obey the civil authorities. Perhaps by being so dogmatic in his support of civil law, he could stave off some of the impending civil persecution that would haunt the early Christian Church. The Christian mission was not to overthrow the government, as corrupt as it was. God would leave that to the barbarians. That was the message for the Christians in that time. However, applying the same advice to all situations is obviously problematic. It is reasonable to assume that Paul might indeed advocate civil disobedience under different circumstances. It is a true principle however that God ordains men, even imperfect or evil men to their positions of power. This fact is demonstrated in the selection of the early Jewish kings. The Prophet Samuel was commanded of God to select Saul to reign over the people as their first king. However, although he was ordained by a prophet of the Lord, Saul turned to wickedness. In the same way that God allows children to be born into the families of the wicked and abusive, God also allows people to be ruled by wicked dictators. Why would God would allow such things as the Holocaust to happen? These are some of the most difficult questions to answer, and they reach to core of the purpose of life on earth and the nature of human suffering. As much as we would like to blame Satan for all these terrible things, Paul reminds us in this scripture, and many others, that God is ultimately in charge, allowing, and even ordaining and orchestrating the collision of events that result in both tragedy and triumph on the civil stage. Satan has a major role of course, the one he played in the Garden of Eden. We LDS understand that God wanted Adam and Eve to eventually partake of the fruit, so in essence, he "used" Satan as the catalyst. Rom 14. In this chapter, Paul mentions a number of controversial "rules" that were practiced by some early Christians, including not eating meat, and observing certain celebrations or feast days. Some members esteemed these rules as essential commandments binding upon all Saints, and others believed that they were unnecessary. In this chapter, Paul tries to reconcile the two groups by validating both points of view, and then suggesting that both sides refrain from imposing their views on others, and judging them harshly. Paul's approach has a number of modern day applications. In our day there are a number of "rules" esteemed highly by some members, and not others. Examples in our day might include: drinking caffeinated sodas, watching rated R movies, certain political affiliations, believing in evolution, limiting the number of children you have, women working outside the home, performing only hymns from the hymn book in sacrament meeting, watching TV on Sunday, paying tithes on gifts, only fasting for a full and complete 24 hours, etc. While not all of these are perfectly compatible with Paul's particular issues, it may be helpful to some to read this chapter with some of these modern day "rules" in mind. While many in the church have passionate opinions and evidences for why certain of these "rules" are in fact essential commandments, others may claim equally passionately that these are not essential rules, citing anecdotes from the lives of General Authorities, or other rationalizations to justify their point of view. We can apply Paul's approach to these "rules" as long as we are careful not to include commandments that have firm, consistent doctrinal basis, such as abstaining from fornication. We can be certain from these scriptures and others, that Paul was more of a "spirit of the law" person than a "letter of the law" person. Those who follow the "letter of the law" Paul characterizes as "weak." Why does he call them weak? Paul believed that the Law of Moses was a taskmaster to bring us to Christ, a lesser law. The higher law is to have the law of Christ written not in tablets of stone but in the fleshy tablets of the heart. Those who still observe the law in it's more minor "letters," like not eating meat, are weaker in their faith. At the same time, those who are weaker are not condemned by Paul. He admonishes them in verse 5, "let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Many of us need the structure of rules and laws, even for minor things, in order to keep us focused on God, and perfect obedience to Him. For those who don't eat meat because they believe it to be an important law, God accepts their sacrifice of faith and obedience to Him. Were they to break the law, they would be under condemnation, for to them, it is wrong, and God holds us responsible for the laws that we believe and accept. Rom 14:14. Here we have evidence of the variability of certain "religious rules and practices." It is true that rules and practices sometimes change from culture to culture, dispensation to dispensation, and person to person. Sometimes these rules have a cultural origin rather than a Biblical or prophetic one. Sometimes these rules come from individual personal revelation for us. And sometimes they come from certain interpretations of the law. Paul says here that God doesn't always care what the rules are. What God cares about, is that each of us is true to what we personally believe. He that "esteemeth anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean." Our own beliefs may sometimes be variable, incomplete, or imperfect, but God does respect them. When we believe something about Him and his rules, He wants us to be true to those beliefs, even when they are incomplete. Again, this has modern day application, as long as we are careful not to apply it to those commandments like fornication, which are clearly forbidden. Rom 14:15. There is a tendency within the church to think that all Saints should believe the same thing and follow the same rules. However, Paul believes that the church should include members that sometimes share different beliefs. He admonishes us to be sensitive to each others beliefs. Using the example of meat, Paul says that it is unwise to eat meat in front of those who would be offended by it. Once I was in the home of my bishop, who had some rated R movies on his shelf. Although I myself was not offended by his library, I know others who would have been. There is a tendency towards self-righteousness on both sides. For example, some members seem to believe that it is impossible to be a good Mormon and a Democrat at the same time. I know of some Democrats who are "self-righteously" eager to share enlighten these "self-righteous" Republican saints. Paul admonishes us to be careful. Christ died for all, and has accepted all who have come unto Him, regardless of their individual beliefs. Shall we try put a wedge between them and Christ, by distracting our brethren by being too eager to enlighten them with our particular beliefs, which they may find offensive? The caveat is that sometimes Paul himself did take stands on issues like these. He seems to contradict his own advice in Galatians 2:11-14. He relates a confrontation he had with Peter over eating with Gentiles. Peter was eating with Gentiles, (forbidden by the Jewish law) and when he saw Christian Jews enter the room, he sheepishly withdrew from the Gentiles, so as to avoid being seen with them. Paul got angry with Peter and reproached him for his actions. In this example however, Peter was avoiding being seen with Gentiles. This was stronger than simply not eating meat, and Peter's actions condoned Christian Jewish prejudice against Christian Gentiles. For those of us who sometimes feel like Paul, that we need to stand up against "close-mindedness" or "prejudice" within the church, we should be very careful. We risk "destroying" the faith of others by doing so. Unless the actions and beliefs of others are truly harming the church, we should not go about removing motes from others eyes, when we surely have a beam in our own. Rom 14:22. When dealing with certain controversial rules or practices within the church, it is sometimes easy to doubt ourselves. There are a multitude of arguments on both sides that can cloud our understanding and cause us to be indecisive. We should remember that God doesn't necessarily care what we choose to believe on a particular controversial issue, as long as we believe it with faith and confidence, following our belief with exactness. "Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth." Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 12:19-20a. Verse 19 and the beginning of verse 20 seem to fit in well with Jesus's command to love our enemies (Matt 5:44). But how are we to understand the end of verse 20? At face value the end of verse 20 suggests that the motivation for doing good to our enemies, as Paul suggests, is not love, but an attempt to harm them. Under that reading this verse does not seem to fit in with Jesus's command to love our enemies. How can we reconcile this? (See also Prov 25:21-22.) Rom 13:1-5. Paul seems to be saying that governments have been ordained of God and exist to promote good. How does this apply in the case of a tyrannical government? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 9-11                      Next page: Chapters 15b-16

Rom 14:16-20

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 11-15a / Verses 12:1-15:13 Previous page: Chapters 9-11                      Next page: Chapters 15b-16 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 12:2: Transformed. The Greek word translated as "transformed" is metamorphoo (a cousin of the English word "metamorphosis"), which means to change to another form. The word is rare in the New Testament. Paul's use of the word in verse 2 may suggest a transformation greater than we can imagine. It is used only three other times in the New Testament: in Matthew 17:2 and Mark 9:2 to discuss Jesus' change at the Transfiguration, and in 2 Corinthians 3:18 to explain our transformation from glory to glory in the image of God. Rom 12:3: According as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Other translations say it this way, "in accordance with the amount of faith which God has alloted each one of us." Here we have evidence that God is responsible for the amount of faith we have in this life. Similar "predestination" issues were covered in Chapter 9. Understanding God's role in our individual gifts helps us be realistic about them. When we feel responsible for the amount of faith we have, or don't have, we may very well resort to pride, or despair. Pride, if we see ourselves as stronger and more disciplined than those with weaker faith, or despair, if we find it seems impossible achieve the kind of faith we see in some of our fellow saints. Paul reminds us that God has given us our place in this world, along with all of our gifts and weaknesses. For some of us, that means humbling ourselves and accepting our imperfections with honesty. For others, it means accepting that our gifts are not ours, but God's. For others, it means acknowledging that we do have gifts and strengths, and refusing to wallow in insecurity and self-deprecation. Rom 12:5: Becoming like Christ. "Becoming like Christ" is one of the great goals of every Saint. However, here on earth, that goal seems hopelessly lofty. Paul gives us a way to achieve that goal. Individually, we cannot become like Christ, but collectively, we become the "body of Christ." Every member has a different gift and mission, and working together, we become like Christ. The idea of the collective is very important in Christianity, either as a family, or as a church. We cannot be saved alone. If we are saved, we must be saved together, in families and congregations. Our individual lack is perfectly compatible within the Body of Christ, because others will have the strengths that we lack. We too will be able to pick up the slack when we have certain gifts that others lack. Rom 12:9. The Greek word translated as "without dissimulation" (anupokritos) in verse 9 means "unfeigned," "sincere" or "without hypocrisy." Rom 12:9: Cleave. The literal meaning of the Greek word translated as "cleave" (kollao) in verse 9 means "glue" or "fasten together." The Greek word translated as "abhor" (apostugeo) finds its only use in the New Testament in this verse. The word comes from root words that mean "to hate" and "to separate." In Greek, then, the contrast between "abhor" and "cleave" is even stronger, or at least more explicit, than it is in English: We are to hate evil and separate ourselves from it while we glue ourselves to what is good. 12:10: Brotherly love. The Greek word translated as "brotherly love" in verse 10 is philadelphia, which refers to the love that brothers and sisters show toward each other. It is related to the Greek word, philostorgos, which is translated here as "kindly affectioned." This is the only use of philostorgos is the New Testament; the word is usually used to refer to the love that parents and children show toward each other. Paul's use of these words suggests that we are to love and care for each other as members of the same family. His use of philostorgos and philadelphia in the same sentence provides a literary parallelism that is lost in translation. Rom 12:16. This discussion begins with verse 14. It is a series of admonitions or commandments about how we should relate to our brothers and sisters, first, and then about how to relate to others. Rom 12:16: Condescend. The Greek word sunapago translated as "condescend" does not mean to be condescending as we would use the word today. It means basically to associate with the lowly. Rom 12:17. The first clause repeats something already taught in Judaism, as we see in several proverbs (e.g., Proverbs 17:13, Proverbs 20:22, and Proverbs 24:29). In the second clause, Paul gives a rule of thumb for deciding what to do: “Take into consideration what everyone thinks is noble [literally ‘beautiful’].” The Hermeneia commentary on Romans (pages 772-73) suggests that it may also depend on Proverbs; it may be an adaptation of Proverbs 3:4. Rom 12:18. The double qualification that begins this verse—”if possible”; “insofar as it depends on you”—suggests that Paul knows how difficult it can be to live at peace with all. This seems to have two directions. The first has to do with me: I may be weak, but I should do what I can to live in peace. The second has to do with others: peace with others doesn’t depend wholly on me, so I can live in peace with them only insofar as it does depend on me. So the verse says that I should try as hard as I can to live in peace with others, recognizing that peace doesn’t completely depend on me. As the Hermeneia commentary on Romans notes, Paul may be alluding to Psalms 34:14 and Mark 9:50 (”Have peace with one another”). Rom 12:19. It is significant that Paul begins this verse by addressing his audience directly as “beloved.” It is a phrase he uses several times in Romans, especially in chapter 16 (verses 5, 8, 9, and 12). He also used it in the beginning of his letter (Romans 1:7). Paul is speaking to his audience, many of whom he knows personally, in personal terms rather than preaching to a general audience, so he uses an appropriate term of address. The King James translation makes clear we are forbidden to avenge ourselves. However, the real question comes in figuring out what Paul means when he says “leave room for the wrath.” If I can’t seek vengeance, then the wrath for which I am leaving room cannot be my wrath. It must be the wrath of God. If we take vengeance, then our wrath has taken the place of the wrath of God. We have substituted ourselves for God which is obviously impious. So, we must leave room for his wrath by not filling up that space with our own. As proof of his teaching, Paul quotes from a Greek version of Deuteronomy 32:35: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ saith the Lord.” Rom 12:20. Paul continues to cite scriptures to make his point, this time quoting Prov 25:21-22 (again quoting from the Greek version of the Old Testament, the Septuagint). The last half of verse 22 contains a promise of reward that Paul does not quote, “and the Lord shall reward thee.” Though the KJV begins this verse with “therefore,” “rather” or “but” is a better translation. The contrast is with the first part of verse 19: “Don’t look for revenge. Instead, feed your enemies . . . .” At first glance, Verse 20 seems like a contradiction of the overall message of the chapter--to love others, even our enemies, following the example of Christ. So what should we make of this verse? A majority of contemporary scholars believe that Prov 25:22 is an allusion to an Egyptian purification ritual in which a person carried a plate of hot coals on his head to signify repentance. In a similar vein, see Isaiah 6:5-7. There Isaiah laments his impurity and contrasts it with the holiness of God. Then a seraph touches a hot coal to Isaiah's lips, and Isaiah is purified. If we interpret the hot coals in this verse as similarly symbolic of purification (or repentance) then Paul may be telling us that by doing good to our enemies we are bringing about their repentance. Other explanations get to the same end by a different route. They take the hot coals as something painful at first which ultimately leads to repentance. In this case hot coals may be shame, pangs of guilt or embarrassment. In either case, most people understand this verse as teaching that if we do good to our enemies we will lead them to repentance. Nevertheless, another understanding is possible, we can read the hot coals as the Lord's vengeance in our behalf. Under this reading verse 19 and 20 say something like "don't take vengeance yourself. By being good to your enemy the Lord will take vengeance for you. And if instead of taking vengeance you are really nice to your enemy, your enemy will suffer terrible vengeance." But note that this reading changes the subject of who it is that heaps the coals. Verse 20 makes the audience the subject "...for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head" whereas the point of verse 19 is that we are not to seek vengeance. So knowing that they cannot seek vengeance themselves, it only makes sense for Paul to call the audience the "heapers" of the coals if we see them as getting vengeance by proxy, as the Lord takes vengeance. In other words, on this reading, Paul is saying, if you are good to your enemies you will get your vengeance. The problem with this reading is that, at least at first glance, it contradicts the overall message of the chapter--love your enemies following the example of Christ. However, the reading may be justified by the fact that we find essentially the same message in D&C 98:45. That verse, like this one, is embedded in a larger discussion of how we should treat our enemies with love. In following the second interpretation given above, the commandment is for us to love our neighbour and our enemy, and to forgive as many times as necessary. God forgives whom He will forgive. He, being omiscient and perfect in all things, is the One to whom final judgement is reserved. Everything that He does is in the interest of greater goodness for all His creations. This is part of why we leave vengeance to Him - because in Him, it's not really about vengeance, but love; for the wronged and those doing the wronging. If we act with compassion towards our enemies, and they in the future choose not to repent (not directly because of our actions, but with the combined effect of all their choices), the good that we have done them will convict them all the more, because they didn't respond to it with good of their own. It's not exactly the good we do them that turns to their condemnation, but the additional evidence, among all their acts, that their hearts are evil/hard/impure/rebellious. Also, although we should love our enemies, God's love and eternal law include punishment for evil acts not repented of. Love doesn't preclude judgement or recompense for wrong done. Acts and desires must have their consequence - but these are usually God's, not ours. So God is 'allowed', or rather required by eternal law and His own justice, to dispense punishments/consequences for evil. Us being loving towards our enemies doesn't contradict Him passing judgement on them or any other consequences they attract. Nor, of course, should it be our motivation. I think here Paul is stating a fact, not recommending a motivation. Rom 12:21. This is a good summary of Paul's teaching in verses 14-20. However, taking it as a summary of that teaching makes the last reading of verse 20 more difficult. Rom 13:1. According to Wesley's notes, Paul in this scripture issues a public apology for the Christian religion, who at the time were associated with the Jews, who were often rebellious to authority. Paul draws a clear distinction between Jewish and Christian attitudes towards civil authority. Christ disappointed the Jews by not liberating them from the civil law of the Romans. Instead, he taught that Jews should uphold the civil law, and render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's. Paul also suggests that civil authorities are ordained of God, and that they are ministers of God for good. Given that many of these powers that be were in fact evil dictators, Paul's statement seems greatly oversimplified. It could simply be that Paul didn't want the Christians to make any trouble. He also wanted it in writing that he strongly encouraged his Saints to obey the civil authorities. Perhaps by being so dogmatic in his support of civil law, he could stave off some of the impending civil persecution that would haunt the early Christian Church. The Christian mission was not to overthrow the government, as corrupt as it was. God would leave that to the barbarians. That was the message for the Christians in that time. However, applying the same advice to all situations is obviously problematic. It is reasonable to assume that Paul might indeed advocate civil disobedience under different circumstances. It is a true principle however that God ordains men, even imperfect or evil men to their positions of power. This fact is demonstrated in the selection of the early Jewish kings. The Prophet Samuel was commanded of God to select Saul to reign over the people as their first king. However, although he was ordained by a prophet of the Lord, Saul turned to wickedness. In the same way that God allows children to be born into the families of the wicked and abusive, God also allows people to be ruled by wicked dictators. Why would God would allow such things as the Holocaust to happen? These are some of the most difficult questions to answer, and they reach to core of the purpose of life on earth and the nature of human suffering. As much as we would like to blame Satan for all these terrible things, Paul reminds us in this scripture, and many others, that God is ultimately in charge, allowing, and even ordaining and orchestrating the collision of events that result in both tragedy and triumph on the civil stage. Satan has a major role of course, the one he played in the Garden of Eden. We LDS understand that God wanted Adam and Eve to eventually partake of the fruit, so in essence, he "used" Satan as the catalyst. Rom 14. In this chapter, Paul mentions a number of controversial "rules" that were practiced by some early Christians, including not eating meat, and observing certain celebrations or feast days. Some members esteemed these rules as essential commandments binding upon all Saints, and others believed that they were unnecessary. In this chapter, Paul tries to reconcile the two groups by validating both points of view, and then suggesting that both sides refrain from imposing their views on others, and judging them harshly. Paul's approach has a number of modern day applications. In our day there are a number of "rules" esteemed highly by some members, and not others. Examples in our day might include: drinking caffeinated sodas, watching rated R movies, certain political affiliations, believing in evolution, limiting the number of children you have, women working outside the home, performing only hymns from the hymn book in sacrament meeting, watching TV on Sunday, paying tithes on gifts, only fasting for a full and complete 24 hours, etc. While not all of these are perfectly compatible with Paul's particular issues, it may be helpful to some to read this chapter with some of these modern day "rules" in mind. While many in the church have passionate opinions and evidences for why certain of these "rules" are in fact essential commandments, others may claim equally passionately that these are not essential rules, citing anecdotes from the lives of General Authorities, or other rationalizations to justify their point of view. We can apply Paul's approach to these "rules" as long as we are careful not to include commandments that have firm, consistent doctrinal basis, such as abstaining from fornication. We can be certain from these scriptures and others, that Paul was more of a "spirit of the law" person than a "letter of the law" person. Those who follow the "letter of the law" Paul characterizes as "weak." Why does he call them weak? Paul believed that the Law of Moses was a taskmaster to bring us to Christ, a lesser law. The higher law is to have the law of Christ written not in tablets of stone but in the fleshy tablets of the heart. Those who still observe the law in it's more minor "letters," like not eating meat, are weaker in their faith. At the same time, those who are weaker are not condemned by Paul. He admonishes them in verse 5, "let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Many of us need the structure of rules and laws, even for minor things, in order to keep us focused on God, and perfect obedience to Him. For those who don't eat meat because they believe it to be an important law, God accepts their sacrifice of faith and obedience to Him. Were they to break the law, they would be under condemnation, for to them, it is wrong, and God holds us responsible for the laws that we believe and accept. Rom 14:14. Here we have evidence of the variability of certain "religious rules and practices." It is true that rules and practices sometimes change from culture to culture, dispensation to dispensation, and person to person. Sometimes these rules have a cultural origin rather than a Biblical or prophetic one. Sometimes these rules come from individual personal revelation for us. And sometimes they come from certain interpretations of the law. Paul says here that God doesn't always care what the rules are. What God cares about, is that each of us is true to what we personally believe. He that "esteemeth anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean." Our own beliefs may sometimes be variable, incomplete, or imperfect, but God does respect them. When we believe something about Him and his rules, He wants us to be true to those beliefs, even when they are incomplete. Again, this has modern day application, as long as we are careful not to apply it to those commandments like fornication, which are clearly forbidden. Rom 14:15. There is a tendency within the church to think that all Saints should believe the same thing and follow the same rules. However, Paul believes that the church should include members that sometimes share different beliefs. He admonishes us to be sensitive to each others beliefs. Using the example of meat, Paul says that it is unwise to eat meat in front of those who would be offended by it. Once I was in the home of my bishop, who had some rated R movies on his shelf. Although I myself was not offended by his library, I know others who would have been. There is a tendency towards self-righteousness on both sides. For example, some members seem to believe that it is impossible to be a good Mormon and a Democrat at the same time. I know of some Democrats who are "self-righteously" eager to share enlighten these "self-righteous" Republican saints. Paul admonishes us to be careful. Christ died for all, and has accepted all who have come unto Him, regardless of their individual beliefs. Shall we try put a wedge between them and Christ, by distracting our brethren by being too eager to enlighten them with our particular beliefs, which they may find offensive? The caveat is that sometimes Paul himself did take stands on issues like these. He seems to contradict his own advice in Galatians 2:11-14. He relates a confrontation he had with Peter over eating with Gentiles. Peter was eating with Gentiles, (forbidden by the Jewish law) and when he saw Christian Jews enter the room, he sheepishly withdrew from the Gentiles, so as to avoid being seen with them. Paul got angry with Peter and reproached him for his actions. In this example however, Peter was avoiding being seen with Gentiles. This was stronger than simply not eating meat, and Peter's actions condoned Christian Jewish prejudice against Christian Gentiles. For those of us who sometimes feel like Paul, that we need to stand up against "close-mindedness" or "prejudice" within the church, we should be very careful. We risk "destroying" the faith of others by doing so. Unless the actions and beliefs of others are truly harming the church, we should not go about removing motes from others eyes, when we surely have a beam in our own. Rom 14:22. When dealing with certain controversial rules or practices within the church, it is sometimes easy to doubt ourselves. There are a multitude of arguments on both sides that can cloud our understanding and cause us to be indecisive. We should remember that God doesn't necessarily care what we choose to believe on a particular controversial issue, as long as we believe it with faith and confidence, following our belief with exactness. "Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth." Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 12:19-20a. Verse 19 and the beginning of verse 20 seem to fit in well with Jesus's command to love our enemies (Matt 5:44). But how are we to understand the end of verse 20? At face value the end of verse 20 suggests that the motivation for doing good to our enemies, as Paul suggests, is not love, but an attempt to harm them. Under that reading this verse does not seem to fit in with Jesus's command to love our enemies. How can we reconcile this? (See also Prov 25:21-22.) Rom 13:1-5. Paul seems to be saying that governments have been ordained of God and exist to promote good. How does this apply in the case of a tyrannical government? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 9-11                      Next page: Chapters 15b-16

Rom 14:21-23

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapters 11-15a / Verses 12:1-15:13 Previous page: Chapters 9-11                      Next page: Chapters 15b-16 This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 12:2: Transformed. The Greek word translated as "transformed" is metamorphoo (a cousin of the English word "metamorphosis"), which means to change to another form. The word is rare in the New Testament. Paul's use of the word in verse 2 may suggest a transformation greater than we can imagine. It is used only three other times in the New Testament: in Matthew 17:2 and Mark 9:2 to discuss Jesus' change at the Transfiguration, and in 2 Corinthians 3:18 to explain our transformation from glory to glory in the image of God. Rom 12:3: According as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Other translations say it this way, "in accordance with the amount of faith which God has alloted each one of us." Here we have evidence that God is responsible for the amount of faith we have in this life. Similar "predestination" issues were covered in Chapter 9. Understanding God's role in our individual gifts helps us be realistic about them. When we feel responsible for the amount of faith we have, or don't have, we may very well resort to pride, or despair. Pride, if we see ourselves as stronger and more disciplined than those with weaker faith, or despair, if we find it seems impossible achieve the kind of faith we see in some of our fellow saints. Paul reminds us that God has given us our place in this world, along with all of our gifts and weaknesses. For some of us, that means humbling ourselves and accepting our imperfections with honesty. For others, it means accepting that our gifts are not ours, but God's. For others, it means acknowledging that we do have gifts and strengths, and refusing to wallow in insecurity and self-deprecation. Rom 12:5: Becoming like Christ. "Becoming like Christ" is one of the great goals of every Saint. However, here on earth, that goal seems hopelessly lofty. Paul gives us a way to achieve that goal. Individually, we cannot become like Christ, but collectively, we become the "body of Christ." Every member has a different gift and mission, and working together, we become like Christ. The idea of the collective is very important in Christianity, either as a family, or as a church. We cannot be saved alone. If we are saved, we must be saved together, in families and congregations. Our individual lack is perfectly compatible within the Body of Christ, because others will have the strengths that we lack. We too will be able to pick up the slack when we have certain gifts that others lack. Rom 12:9. The Greek word translated as "without dissimulation" (anupokritos) in verse 9 means "unfeigned," "sincere" or "without hypocrisy." Rom 12:9: Cleave. The literal meaning of the Greek word translated as "cleave" (kollao) in verse 9 means "glue" or "fasten together." The Greek word translated as "abhor" (apostugeo) finds its only use in the New Testament in this verse. The word comes from root words that mean "to hate" and "to separate." In Greek, then, the contrast between "abhor" and "cleave" is even stronger, or at least more explicit, than it is in English: We are to hate evil and separate ourselves from it while we glue ourselves to what is good. 12:10: Brotherly love. The Greek word translated as "brotherly love" in verse 10 is philadelphia, which refers to the love that brothers and sisters show toward each other. It is related to the Greek word, philostorgos, which is translated here as "kindly affectioned." This is the only use of philostorgos is the New Testament; the word is usually used to refer to the love that parents and children show toward each other. Paul's use of these words suggests that we are to love and care for each other as members of the same family. His use of philostorgos and philadelphia in the same sentence provides a literary parallelism that is lost in translation. Rom 12:16. This discussion begins with verse 14. It is a series of admonitions or commandments about how we should relate to our brothers and sisters, first, and then about how to relate to others. Rom 12:16: Condescend. The Greek word sunapago translated as "condescend" does not mean to be condescending as we would use the word today. It means basically to associate with the lowly. Rom 12:17. The first clause repeats something already taught in Judaism, as we see in several proverbs (e.g., Proverbs 17:13, Proverbs 20:22, and Proverbs 24:29). In the second clause, Paul gives a rule of thumb for deciding what to do: “Take into consideration what everyone thinks is noble [literally ‘beautiful’].” The Hermeneia commentary on Romans (pages 772-73) suggests that it may also depend on Proverbs; it may be an adaptation of Proverbs 3:4. Rom 12:18. The double qualification that begins this verse—”if possible”; “insofar as it depends on you”—suggests that Paul knows how difficult it can be to live at peace with all. This seems to have two directions. The first has to do with me: I may be weak, but I should do what I can to live in peace. The second has to do with others: peace with others doesn’t depend wholly on me, so I can live in peace with them only insofar as it does depend on me. So the verse says that I should try as hard as I can to live in peace with others, recognizing that peace doesn’t completely depend on me. As the Hermeneia commentary on Romans notes, Paul may be alluding to Psalms 34:14 and Mark 9:50 (”Have peace with one another”). Rom 12:19. It is significant that Paul begins this verse by addressing his audience directly as “beloved.” It is a phrase he uses several times in Romans, especially in chapter 16 (verses 5, 8, 9, and 12). He also used it in the beginning of his letter (Romans 1:7). Paul is speaking to his audience, many of whom he knows personally, in personal terms rather than preaching to a general audience, so he uses an appropriate term of address. The King James translation makes clear we are forbidden to avenge ourselves. However, the real question comes in figuring out what Paul means when he says “leave room for the wrath.” If I can’t seek vengeance, then the wrath for which I am leaving room cannot be my wrath. It must be the wrath of God. If we take vengeance, then our wrath has taken the place of the wrath of God. We have substituted ourselves for God which is obviously impious. So, we must leave room for his wrath by not filling up that space with our own. As proof of his teaching, Paul quotes from a Greek version of Deuteronomy 32:35: “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ saith the Lord.” Rom 12:20. Paul continues to cite scriptures to make his point, this time quoting Prov 25:21-22 (again quoting from the Greek version of the Old Testament, the Septuagint). The last half of verse 22 contains a promise of reward that Paul does not quote, “and the Lord shall reward thee.” Though the KJV begins this verse with “therefore,” “rather” or “but” is a better translation. The contrast is with the first part of verse 19: “Don’t look for revenge. Instead, feed your enemies . . . .” At first glance, Verse 20 seems like a contradiction of the overall message of the chapter--to love others, even our enemies, following the example of Christ. So what should we make of this verse? A majority of contemporary scholars believe that Prov 25:22 is an allusion to an Egyptian purification ritual in which a person carried a plate of hot coals on his head to signify repentance. In a similar vein, see Isaiah 6:5-7. There Isaiah laments his impurity and contrasts it with the holiness of God. Then a seraph touches a hot coal to Isaiah's lips, and Isaiah is purified. If we interpret the hot coals in this verse as similarly symbolic of purification (or repentance) then Paul may be telling us that by doing good to our enemies we are bringing about their repentance. Other explanations get to the same end by a different route. They take the hot coals as something painful at first which ultimately leads to repentance. In this case hot coals may be shame, pangs of guilt or embarrassment. In either case, most people understand this verse as teaching that if we do good to our enemies we will lead them to repentance. Nevertheless, another understanding is possible, we can read the hot coals as the Lord's vengeance in our behalf. Under this reading verse 19 and 20 say something like "don't take vengeance yourself. By being good to your enemy the Lord will take vengeance for you. And if instead of taking vengeance you are really nice to your enemy, your enemy will suffer terrible vengeance." But note that this reading changes the subject of who it is that heaps the coals. Verse 20 makes the audience the subject "...for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head" whereas the point of verse 19 is that we are not to seek vengeance. So knowing that they cannot seek vengeance themselves, it only makes sense for Paul to call the audience the "heapers" of the coals if we see them as getting vengeance by proxy, as the Lord takes vengeance. In other words, on this reading, Paul is saying, if you are good to your enemies you will get your vengeance. The problem with this reading is that, at least at first glance, it contradicts the overall message of the chapter--love your enemies following the example of Christ. However, the reading may be justified by the fact that we find essentially the same message in D&C 98:45. That verse, like this one, is embedded in a larger discussion of how we should treat our enemies with love. In following the second interpretation given above, the commandment is for us to love our neighbour and our enemy, and to forgive as many times as necessary. God forgives whom He will forgive. He, being omiscient and perfect in all things, is the One to whom final judgement is reserved. Everything that He does is in the interest of greater goodness for all His creations. This is part of why we leave vengeance to Him - because in Him, it's not really about vengeance, but love; for the wronged and those doing the wronging. If we act with compassion towards our enemies, and they in the future choose not to repent (not directly because of our actions, but with the combined effect of all their choices), the good that we have done them will convict them all the more, because they didn't respond to it with good of their own. It's not exactly the good we do them that turns to their condemnation, but the additional evidence, among all their acts, that their hearts are evil/hard/impure/rebellious. Also, although we should love our enemies, God's love and eternal law include punishment for evil acts not repented of. Love doesn't preclude judgement or recompense for wrong done. Acts and desires must have their consequence - but these are usually God's, not ours. So God is 'allowed', or rather required by eternal law and His own justice, to dispense punishments/consequences for evil. Us being loving towards our enemies doesn't contradict Him passing judgement on them or any other consequences they attract. Nor, of course, should it be our motivation. I think here Paul is stating a fact, not recommending a motivation. Rom 12:21. This is a good summary of Paul's teaching in verses 14-20. However, taking it as a summary of that teaching makes the last reading of verse 20 more difficult. Rom 13:1. According to Wesley's notes, Paul in this scripture issues a public apology for the Christian religion, who at the time were associated with the Jews, who were often rebellious to authority. Paul draws a clear distinction between Jewish and Christian attitudes towards civil authority. Christ disappointed the Jews by not liberating them from the civil law of the Romans. Instead, he taught that Jews should uphold the civil law, and render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's. Paul also suggests that civil authorities are ordained of God, and that they are ministers of God for good. Given that many of these powers that be were in fact evil dictators, Paul's statement seems greatly oversimplified. It could simply be that Paul didn't want the Christians to make any trouble. He also wanted it in writing that he strongly encouraged his Saints to obey the civil authorities. Perhaps by being so dogmatic in his support of civil law, he could stave off some of the impending civil persecution that would haunt the early Christian Church. The Christian mission was not to overthrow the government, as corrupt as it was. God would leave that to the barbarians. That was the message for the Christians in that time. However, applying the same advice to all situations is obviously problematic. It is reasonable to assume that Paul might indeed advocate civil disobedience under different circumstances. It is a true principle however that God ordains men, even imperfect or evil men to their positions of power. This fact is demonstrated in the selection of the early Jewish kings. The Prophet Samuel was commanded of God to select Saul to reign over the people as their first king. However, although he was ordained by a prophet of the Lord, Saul turned to wickedness. In the same way that God allows children to be born into the families of the wicked and abusive, God also allows people to be ruled by wicked dictators. Why would God would allow such things as the Holocaust to happen? These are some of the most difficult questions to answer, and they reach to core of the purpose of life on earth and the nature of human suffering. As much as we would like to blame Satan for all these terrible things, Paul reminds us in this scripture, and many others, that God is ultimately in charge, allowing, and even ordaining and orchestrating the collision of events that result in both tragedy and triumph on the civil stage. Satan has a major role of course, the one he played in the Garden of Eden. We LDS understand that God wanted Adam and Eve to eventually partake of the fruit, so in essence, he "used" Satan as the catalyst. Rom 14. In this chapter, Paul mentions a number of controversial "rules" that were practiced by some early Christians, including not eating meat, and observing certain celebrations or feast days. Some members esteemed these rules as essential commandments binding upon all Saints, and others believed that they were unnecessary. In this chapter, Paul tries to reconcile the two groups by validating both points of view, and then suggesting that both sides refrain from imposing their views on others, and judging them harshly. Paul's approach has a number of modern day applications. In our day there are a number of "rules" esteemed highly by some members, and not others. Examples in our day might include: drinking caffeinated sodas, watching rated R movies, certain political affiliations, believing in evolution, limiting the number of children you have, women working outside the home, performing only hymns from the hymn book in sacrament meeting, watching TV on Sunday, paying tithes on gifts, only fasting for a full and complete 24 hours, etc. While not all of these are perfectly compatible with Paul's particular issues, it may be helpful to some to read this chapter with some of these modern day "rules" in mind. While many in the church have passionate opinions and evidences for why certain of these "rules" are in fact essential commandments, others may claim equally passionately that these are not essential rules, citing anecdotes from the lives of General Authorities, or other rationalizations to justify their point of view. We can apply Paul's approach to these "rules" as long as we are careful not to include commandments that have firm, consistent doctrinal basis, such as abstaining from fornication. We can be certain from these scriptures and others, that Paul was more of a "spirit of the law" person than a "letter of the law" person. Those who follow the "letter of the law" Paul characterizes as "weak." Why does he call them weak? Paul believed that the Law of Moses was a taskmaster to bring us to Christ, a lesser law. The higher law is to have the law of Christ written not in tablets of stone but in the fleshy tablets of the heart. Those who still observe the law in it's more minor "letters," like not eating meat, are weaker in their faith. At the same time, those who are weaker are not condemned by Paul. He admonishes them in verse 5, "let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Many of us need the structure of rules and laws, even for minor things, in order to keep us focused on God, and perfect obedience to Him. For those who don't eat meat because they believe it to be an important law, God accepts their sacrifice of faith and obedience to Him. Were they to break the law, they would be under condemnation, for to them, it is wrong, and God holds us responsible for the laws that we believe and accept. Rom 14:14. Here we have evidence of the variability of certain "religious rules and practices." It is true that rules and practices sometimes change from culture to culture, dispensation to dispensation, and person to person. Sometimes these rules have a cultural origin rather than a Biblical or prophetic one. Sometimes these rules come from individual personal revelation for us. And sometimes they come from certain interpretations of the law. Paul says here that God doesn't always care what the rules are. What God cares about, is that each of us is true to what we personally believe. He that "esteemeth anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean." Our own beliefs may sometimes be variable, incomplete, or imperfect, but God does respect them. When we believe something about Him and his rules, He wants us to be true to those beliefs, even when they are incomplete. Again, this has modern day application, as long as we are careful not to apply it to those commandments like fornication, which are clearly forbidden. Rom 14:15. There is a tendency within the church to think that all Saints should believe the same thing and follow the same rules. However, Paul believes that the church should include members that sometimes share different beliefs. He admonishes us to be sensitive to each others beliefs. Using the example of meat, Paul says that it is unwise to eat meat in front of those who would be offended by it. Once I was in the home of my bishop, who had some rated R movies on his shelf. Although I myself was not offended by his library, I know others who would have been. There is a tendency towards self-righteousness on both sides. For example, some members seem to believe that it is impossible to be a good Mormon and a Democrat at the same time. I know of some Democrats who are "self-righteously" eager to share enlighten these "self-righteous" Republican saints. Paul admonishes us to be careful. Christ died for all, and has accepted all who have come unto Him, regardless of their individual beliefs. Shall we try put a wedge between them and Christ, by distracting our brethren by being too eager to enlighten them with our particular beliefs, which they may find offensive? The caveat is that sometimes Paul himself did take stands on issues like these. He seems to contradict his own advice in Galatians 2:11-14. He relates a confrontation he had with Peter over eating with Gentiles. Peter was eating with Gentiles, (forbidden by the Jewish law) and when he saw Christian Jews enter the room, he sheepishly withdrew from the Gentiles, so as to avoid being seen with them. Paul got angry with Peter and reproached him for his actions. In this example however, Peter was avoiding being seen with Gentiles. This was stronger than simply not eating meat, and Peter's actions condoned Christian Jewish prejudice against Christian Gentiles. For those of us who sometimes feel like Paul, that we need to stand up against "close-mindedness" or "prejudice" within the church, we should be very careful. We risk "destroying" the faith of others by doing so. Unless the actions and beliefs of others are truly harming the church, we should not go about removing motes from others eyes, when we surely have a beam in our own. Rom 14:22. When dealing with certain controversial rules or practices within the church, it is sometimes easy to doubt ourselves. There are a multitude of arguments on both sides that can cloud our understanding and cause us to be indecisive. We should remember that God doesn't necessarily care what we choose to believe on a particular controversial issue, as long as we believe it with faith and confidence, following our belief with exactness. "Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth." Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 12:19-20a. Verse 19 and the beginning of verse 20 seem to fit in well with Jesus's command to love our enemies (Matt 5:44). But how are we to understand the end of verse 20? At face value the end of verse 20 suggests that the motivation for doing good to our enemies, as Paul suggests, is not love, but an attempt to harm them. Under that reading this verse does not seem to fit in with Jesus's command to love our enemies. How can we reconcile this? (See also Prov 25:21-22.) Rom 13:1-5. Paul seems to be saying that governments have been ordained of God and exist to promote good. How does this apply in the case of a tyrannical government? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 9-11                      Next page: Chapters 15b-16

Template:Incl

Rom 15:6-10

Rom 15:6-10

Rom 15:11-15

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapter 15b-16 / Verses 15:14-16:27 Previous page: Chapters 12-15a                      This is the last page for Romans This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 16:7. Is Paul saying that Andronicus and Junia (a woman) are notable apostles, or that they are noted by the apostles? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 12-15a                      This is the last page for Romans

Rom 15:16-20

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapter 15b-16 / Verses 15:14-16:27 Previous page: Chapters 12-15a                      This is the last page for Romans This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 16:7. Is Paul saying that Andronicus and Junia (a woman) are notable apostles, or that they are noted by the apostles? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 12-15a                      This is the last page for Romans

Rom 15:21-25

Home > The New Testament > Romans > Chapter 15b-16 / Verses 15:14-16:27 Previous page: Chapters 12-15a                      This is the last page for Romans This page would ideally always be under construction. You are invited to contribute. Summary This heading should be very brief. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Discussion This heading is for more detailed discussions of all or part of a passage. Discussion may include the meaning of a particular word, how a doctrinal point is developed throughout the passage, insights to be developed in the future, and other items. Contributions may range from polished paragraphs down to a single bullet point. The focus, however, should always be on understanding the scriptural text consistent with LDS doctrine. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Points to ponder This heading is for prompts that suggest ways in which all or part of this passage can influence a person's life. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → I have a question This heading is for unanswered questions and is an important part of the continual effort to improve this wiki. Please do not be shy, as even a basic or "stupid" question can identify things that need to be improved on this page. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Rom 16:7. Is Paul saying that Andronicus and Junia (a woman) are notable apostles, or that they are noted by the apostles? Resources This heading is for listing links and print resources, including those cited in the notes. A short comment about the particular strengths of a resource can be helpful. Click the link above and to the right to edit or add content to this heading. → Notes Footnotes are not required but are encouraged for factual assertions that average readers cannot easily evaluate for themselves, such as the date of King Solomon’s death or the nuanced definition of a Greek word. In contrast, insights rarely benefit from footnoting, and the focus of this page should always remain on the scriptures themselves rather than what someone has said about them. Links are actively encouraged on all sections of this page, and links to authoritative sources are preferable to footnotes. Previous page: Chapters 12-15a                      This is the last page for Romans

Template:Incl

Rom 15:31-33

Rom 15:31-33

Rom 16:1-5

Rom 16:1-5

Rom 16:6-10

Rom 16:6-10

Rom 16:11-15

Rom 16:11-15

Rom 16:16-20

Rom 16:16-20

Rom 16:21-27

Rom 16:21-27

For efficiency this page often uses a cached copy of an older version. If you need to refresh the cache, to see the most up to date version, click here.